Discussion:
Oh, please, please, COME ON Ubuntu development people!
(too old to reply)
Basil Chupin
2011-04-15 08:07:37 UTC
Permalink
I installed Ubuntu Beta #1 a day ago or so.

This morning Ms Kate Stewart informed me that Beta #2 was released. Fine
- been waiting for it; so I go and download the CD. Took the normal 1
1/2 hours; not a problem, really - all done while I was out getting the
DVD of the release of Part1 of the final Harry Potter movie.

Then I started the installation of Beta #2 and was asked if this was a
new installation or simply an upgrade to the earlier version (Beta #1).

I chose the latter: the upgrade to an existing installation of Natty.

And then the wheels fell off...... :'( .

After 5 hours of "upgrading" an existing installation of Natty I hit the
POWER OFF/SHUTDOWN button.....

Why did I do this, you ask?

Well, 5 hours of sitting here and looking at the screen with Ubuntu's
Natty Beta #2 showing me that it is, firstly, "Installing" files - fine,
no problem with this, but.. - and then "Restoring previously installed
packages" (if they are already installed why the f**** then DOWNLOAD the
damn things!?) at a download rate which makes a drunk snail high on
snail-killer bait look positively faster then a speeding bullet! I just
had to hit the computer's SHUTDOWN button.

A few days ago I downloaded and installed another distro (openSUSE if
you are interested). The whole operation took a frection of the time I
just spent with Beta #2. Why? Because that distro is using a
"something-Brain" which selects the most efficient local to you mirror
to grab all the necessary files.

The way my modem lights were looking showed that the download speed of
whatever files Natty Beta #2 was downloading was in the vicinity of
anywhere between <1KB/s to 10KB/s . (How do I know this? because I have
seen this speed when downloading files from the normal Ubuntu server
before I selected/switched to my bestest local server in the
Repositories settings.)

While this may be "rant" to many people, this really is NOT a laughing
matter.

Once you have selected the option to install Ubuntu there is no way to
halt/stop/resume the process - nor is there to select the most efficient
download source. When using the other distro (openSUSE) one also had the
option to use SMART which could be stopped if you didn't like the
download rate, wait for a while, and then resume in which case there was
a very strong probability of getting a betting download rate. Not just
speculation but fact as I experienced this often.

Time to sort this out, Ubuntu!

BC
--
Great Man reaches complete understanding of the main issues; Petty Man reaches complete understanding of the minute details."

Confucius
Alan Pope
2011-04-15 08:58:27 UTC
Permalink
Hi Basil,

Hope this mail reaches you in the way it was intended, informative and helpful.
Post by Basil Chupin
I installed Ubuntu Beta #1 a day ago or so.
This morning Ms Kate Stewart informed me that Beta #2 was released. Fine -
been waiting for it; so I go and download the CD.
Ok, first question. Why do this?

If you install Ubuntu Beta 1, and keep up to date with update manager
(or sudo apt-get update && sudo apt-get dist-upgrade, whatever you're
more familiar with) you _will_ be on Beta 2. There is no need to
reinstall to go from Beta 1 to Beta 2, or from Beta 2 to final
release.

The only exception to that is if you're doing this as an exercise to
test the Beta 2 installer / upgrade process with a view to giving the
team some feedback (in the form of bug reports or testing reports).
Post by Basil Chupin
Then I started the installation of Beta #2 and was asked if this was a new
installation or simply an upgrade to the earlier version (Beta #1).
I chose the latter: the upgrade to an existing installation of Natty.
And then the wheels fell off...... :'( .
Ok, worth pointing out a few things. This is a new feature in the
Natty version of Ubiquity (the installer). I haven't tested this in
Natty but the way I understand it works is as follows:-

{Here begins my understanding of the new natty installer that I
learned whilst drinking cocktails in a noodle bar with the lovely guy
who maintains Ubiquity. So my understanding may be slightly broken}
You have a version of ubuntu that you want to upgrade, and you have a
CD containing Natty. You don't want to run the "upgrade" process using
update manager for whatever reason (e.g. you already have a CD, why
download all over again, or maybe you are running a very old version
of Ubuntu (such as 9.04) which has no direct upgrade path to Natty).

As I understand it the installer will look for any 'non-standard'
packages (ones that don't ship on the CD) and makes a list of those.
It also figures out what 3rd party apps (like skype for example) that
you had installed on the 'old release' and repackage those up (as
installable debs) and put them to one side. The installer then wipes
out your entire install except the /home directory, so that means it
deletes the contents of /bin /etc /usr and so on, but again,
crucially, not /home.

It then does an install (which is essentially copying the contents of
the live environment from the CD to the hard disk) giving you a new
set of packages (in /bin /usr etc). At this point you have a clean
Natty install with your existing /home directory. Next it installs the
packages that were listed as non-standard in the paragraph above, and
download/installs those. It also takes the packages that were
repackaged (e.g. Skype) and installs those over the top. The goal of
this is to get you upgraded from "old ubuntu" to "latest ubuntu"
without losing your home directory data, and trying to reinstall any
old non-standard apps that may have been installed previously.

This is _great_ if you are running anything older than 10.10. 10.10
has a direct upgrade path to 11.04 via update manager. All releases
older than 10.10 do not. Therefore if you have been running Ubuntu
older than 10.10 this is a great way to get to the latest release in
one go, without losing your home directory, and without losing all the
apps you had installed.
{end of my understanding}

So in a nutshell "Upgrade" in update manager means "upgrade each
individual package", "upgrade" in ubiquity means "make a list of
everything, wipe everything except home, blat a new image on the disk
and re-add missing packages".
Post by Basil Chupin
Well, 5 hours of sitting here and looking at the screen with Ubuntu's Natty
Beta #2 showing me that it is, firstly, "Installing" files - fine, no
problem with this, but.. - and then "Restoring previously installed
packages" (if they are already installed why the f**** then DOWNLOAD the
damn things!?)
See above explanation - this would be it re-adding all the apps you
had on beta 1.
Post by Basil Chupin
at a download rate which makes a drunk snail high on
snail-killer bait look positively faster then a speeding bullet! I just had
to hit the computer's SHUTDOWN button.
Had to? Do you have another computer? Might be worth in the future, if
you get into this kind of "omg, I'm gonna kill it" position, to jump
on #ubuntu IRC channel and ask for some pointers there, rather than
resort to the power button.
Post by Basil Chupin
A few days ago I downloaded and installed another distro (openSUSE if you
are interested). The whole operation took a frection of the time I just
spent with Beta #2. Why? Because that distro is using a "something-Brain"
which selects the most efficient local to you mirror to grab all the
necessary files.
Sounds like we have a bug in Ubiquity which doesn't select the nearest
mirror. Perhaps look for a bug or file it here:-

http://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/ubiquity/+bugs
Post by Basil Chupin
While this may be "rant" to many people, this really is NOT a laughing
matter.
Indeed it isn't a laughing matter. It's an issue that may bite lots of
other people too. The community spirited thing to do would be to let
the developers know about this issue, and the best way to do that is
file a bug, see link above. I'll also point the Ubiquity developer at
this thread to see if there's anything he can learn from it.

Cheers,
Al.
Gilles Gravier
2011-04-15 09:10:49 UTC
Permalink
What I want to add to the debate is that this is a "BETA" version. We
are talking about a product not yet finished. Not yet ready for
mission-critical use.

I understand Basil being upset. But in a way, he "asked for it". When
one downloads a beta, one does so expecting to get into trouble, and to
report these bugs. And complaining strongly that a beta is buggy is,
well, to say the least, not what is expected of a user of a beta.

That kind of complaining *MIGHT* be justified *ONLY* once the product is
final... :)

Gilles.
Post by Alan Pope
Hi Basil,
Hope this mail reaches you in the way it was intended, informative and helpful.
Post by Basil Chupin
I installed Ubuntu Beta #1 a day ago or so.
This morning Ms Kate Stewart informed me that Beta #2 was released. Fine -
been waiting for it; so I go and download the CD.
Ok, first question. Why do this?
If you install Ubuntu Beta 1, and keep up to date with update manager
(or sudo apt-get update && sudo apt-get dist-upgrade, whatever you're
more familiar with) you _will_ be on Beta 2. There is no need to
reinstall to go from Beta 1 to Beta 2, or from Beta 2 to final
release.
The only exception to that is if you're doing this as an exercise to
test the Beta 2 installer / upgrade process with a view to giving the
team some feedback (in the form of bug reports or testing reports).
Post by Basil Chupin
Then I started the installation of Beta #2 and was asked if this was a new
installation or simply an upgrade to the earlier version (Beta #1).
I chose the latter: the upgrade to an existing installation of Natty.
And then the wheels fell off...... :'( .
Ok, worth pointing out a few things. This is a new feature in the
Natty version of Ubiquity (the installer). I haven't tested this in
Natty but the way I understand it works is as follows:-
{Here begins my understanding of the new natty installer that I
learned whilst drinking cocktails in a noodle bar with the lovely guy
who maintains Ubiquity. So my understanding may be slightly broken}
You have a version of ubuntu that you want to upgrade, and you have a
CD containing Natty. You don't want to run the "upgrade" process using
update manager for whatever reason (e.g. you already have a CD, why
download all over again, or maybe you are running a very old version
of Ubuntu (such as 9.04) which has no direct upgrade path to Natty).
As I understand it the installer will look for any 'non-standard'
packages (ones that don't ship on the CD) and makes a list of those.
It also figures out what 3rd party apps (like skype for example) that
you had installed on the 'old release' and repackage those up (as
installable debs) and put them to one side. The installer then wipes
out your entire install except the /home directory, so that means it
deletes the contents of /bin /etc /usr and so on, but again,
crucially, not /home.
It then does an install (which is essentially copying the contents of
the live environment from the CD to the hard disk) giving you a new
set of packages (in /bin /usr etc). At this point you have a clean
Natty install with your existing /home directory. Next it installs the
packages that were listed as non-standard in the paragraph above, and
download/installs those. It also takes the packages that were
repackaged (e.g. Skype) and installs those over the top. The goal of
this is to get you upgraded from "old ubuntu" to "latest ubuntu"
without losing your home directory data, and trying to reinstall any
old non-standard apps that may have been installed previously.
This is _great_ if you are running anything older than 10.10. 10.10
has a direct upgrade path to 11.04 via update manager. All releases
older than 10.10 do not. Therefore if you have been running Ubuntu
older than 10.10 this is a great way to get to the latest release in
one go, without losing your home directory, and without losing all the
apps you had installed.
{end of my understanding}
So in a nutshell "Upgrade" in update manager means "upgrade each
individual package", "upgrade" in ubiquity means "make a list of
everything, wipe everything except home, blat a new image on the disk
and re-add missing packages".
Post by Basil Chupin
Well, 5 hours of sitting here and looking at the screen with Ubuntu's Natty
Beta #2 showing me that it is, firstly, "Installing" files - fine, no
problem with this, but.. - and then "Restoring previously installed
packages" (if they are already installed why the f**** then DOWNLOAD the
damn things!?)
See above explanation - this would be it re-adding all the apps you
had on beta 1.
Post by Basil Chupin
at a download rate which makes a drunk snail high on
snail-killer bait look positively faster then a speeding bullet! I just had
to hit the computer's SHUTDOWN button.
Had to? Do you have another computer? Might be worth in the future, if
you get into this kind of "omg, I'm gonna kill it" position, to jump
on #ubuntu IRC channel and ask for some pointers there, rather than
resort to the power button.
Post by Basil Chupin
A few days ago I downloaded and installed another distro (openSUSE if you
are interested). The whole operation took a frection of the time I just
spent with Beta #2. Why? Because that distro is using a "something-Brain"
which selects the most efficient local to you mirror to grab all the
necessary files.
Sounds like we have a bug in Ubiquity which doesn't select the nearest
mirror. Perhaps look for a bug or file it here:-
http://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/ubiquity/+bugs
Post by Basil Chupin
While this may be "rant" to many people, this really is NOT a laughing
matter.
Indeed it isn't a laughing matter. It's an issue that may bite lots of
other people too. The community spirited thing to do would be to let
the developers know about this issue, and the best way to do that is
file a bug, see link above. I'll also point the Ubiquity developer at
this thread to see if there's anything he can learn from it.
Cheers,
Al.
Alan Pope
2011-04-15 09:15:30 UTC
Permalink
Hi Gilles,
Post by Gilles Gravier
What I want to add to the debate is that this is a "BETA" version. We
are talking about a product not yet finished. Not yet ready for
mission-critical use.
Today is 15th of April. Release date of Natty is 28th April. That's
not long. It's not unreasonable to expect that you might be able to
install the thing a couple of weeks out from release, is it?
Post by Gilles Gravier
I understand Basil being upset. But in a way, he "asked for it". When
one downloads a beta, one does so expecting to get into trouble, and to
report these bugs. And complaining strongly that a beta is buggy is,
well, to say the least, not what is expected of a user of a beta.
Sure, but Basil didn't indicate that this was anything other than
testing. He just outlined that he tried it and it went a bit pear
shaped. I can completely understand his frustration.
Post by Gilles Gravier
That kind of complaining *MIGHT* be justified *ONLY* once the product is
final... :)
I disagree. Someone has to test this stuff before release. The more
the merrier.

Al.
Gilles Gravier
2011-04-15 11:31:06 UTC
Permalink
Hi, Alan!
Post by Alan Pope
Hi Gilles,
Post by Gilles Gravier
What I want to add to the debate is that this is a "BETA" version. We
are talking about a product not yet finished. Not yet ready for
mission-critical use
Today is 15th of April. Release date of Natty is 28th April. That's
not long. It's not unreasonable to expect that you might be able to
install the thing a couple of weeks out from release, is it?
I don't know. As far as I'm concerned, a beta is a beta. It's not even
called a release candidate yet... :) So there may still be bugs. :) Even
in a release candidate, we THINK there are no serious bugs... but it's
still just a candidate as more eyes on it might unearth hidden bugs...
Post by Alan Pope
Post by Gilles Gravier
I understand Basil being upset. But in a way, he "asked for it". When
one downloads a beta, one does so expecting to get into trouble, and to
report these bugs. And complaining strongly that a beta is buggy is,
well, to say the least, not what is expected of a user of a beta.
Sure, but Basil didn't indicate that this was anything other than
testing. He just outlined that he tried it and it went a bit pear
shaped. I can completely understand his frustration.
I understand it as well. But I would have formulated it differently.
Post by Alan Pope
Post by Gilles Gravier
That kind of complaining *MIGHT* be justified *ONLY* once the product is
final... :)
I disagree. Someone has to test this stuff before release. The more
the merrier.
Yes. Testing is testing. Testers KNOW IN ADVANCE that things WILL go
wrong, and they report it without making a fuss. :)

Gilles
Alan Pope
2011-04-15 11:34:31 UTC
Permalink
Hi Gilles,
Post by Gilles Gravier
I don't know. As far as I'm concerned, a beta is a beta. It's not even
called a release candidate yet... :) So there may still be bugs. :) Even
in a release candidate, we THINK there are no serious bugs... but it's
still just a candidate as more eyes on it might unearth hidden bugs...
https://wiki.ubuntu.com/NattyReleaseSchedule

There is no Release Candidate for Natty. :D
Post by Gilles Gravier
Yes. Testing is testing. Testers KNOW IN ADVANCE that things WILL go
wrong, and they report it without making a fuss. :)
:)

Cheers,
Al.
Gilles Gravier
2011-04-15 11:42:07 UTC
Permalink
Hi!
Post by Alan Pope
Hi Gilles,
Post by Gilles Gravier
I don't know. As far as I'm concerned, a beta is a beta. It's not even
called a release candidate yet... :) So there may still be bugs. :) Even
in a release candidate, we THINK there are no serious bugs... but it's
still just a candidate as more eyes on it might unearth hidden bugs...
https://wiki.ubuntu.com/NattyReleaseSchedule
There is no Release Candidate for Natty. :D
Ballsy... :)

Gilles
Niki Kovacs
2011-04-15 12:57:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by Alan Pope
There is no Release Candidate for Natty. :D
"Regression testing? What's that? If it compiles, it is good; if it
boots up, it is perfect." (Linus Torvalds, message to LKML)

:o)

Cheers,

Niki Kovacs
Ric Moore
2011-04-15 09:24:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by Gilles Gravier
What I want to add to the debate is that this is a "BETA" version. We
are talking about a product not yet finished. Not yet ready for
mission-critical use.
I understand Basil being upset. But in a way, he "asked for it". When
one downloads a beta, one does so expecting to get into trouble, and to
report these bugs. And complaining strongly that a beta is buggy is,
well, to say the least, not what is expected of a user of a beta.
That kind of complaining *MIGHT* be justified *ONLY* once the product is
final... :)
Basil has been around enough to know about Beta's. Now that he's got
some good information, he can make better choices. It just didn't act as
he thought it would/should. Stuff is changing! Heck, I still miss line
numbered BASIC. But, if the installer can check for the fastest mirror,
which there is an option for with RPM, if I recall correctly, it would
be better. I've seen some less than modem speeds recently during
updates. Me, I decided after doing the Fedora thing for some time, that
I don't make a good beta tester. I'm getting too long in the tooth. But,
Basil's thing wasn't that it was a Beta, but that he couldn't get
installed. At that point, it appears more an Alpha than a Beta. :) Ric
--
My father, Victor Moore (Vic) used to say:
"There are two Great Sins in the world...
..the Sin of Ignorance, and the Sin of Stupidity.
Only the former may be overcome." R.I.P. Dad.
Linux user# 44256
Basil Chupin
2011-04-16 13:59:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ric Moore
Post by Gilles Gravier
What I want to add to the debate is that this is a "BETA" version. We
are talking about a product not yet finished. Not yet ready for
mission-critical use.
I understand Basil being upset. But in a way, he "asked for it". When
one downloads a beta, one does so expecting to get into trouble, and to
report these bugs. And complaining strongly that a beta is buggy is,
well, to say the least, not what is expected of a user of a beta.
That kind of complaining *MIGHT* be justified *ONLY* once the product is
final... :)
Basil has been around enough to know about Beta's. Now that he's got
some good information, he can make better choices. It just didn't act as
he thought it would/should. Stuff is changing! Heck, I still miss line
numbered BASIC. But, if the installer can check for the fastest mirror,
which there is an option for with RPM, if I recall correctly, it would
be better. I've seen some less than modem speeds recently during
updates. Me, I decided after doing the Fedora thing for some time, that
I don't make a good beta tester. I'm getting too long in the tooth. But,
Basil's thing wasn't that it was a Beta, but that he couldn't get
installed. At that point, it appears more an Alpha than a Beta. :) Ric
I came to the following conclusion last night - and your comments
contain some of those conclusions in one way or another.

The only people who do any 'testing' of these Linux distros, or even try
and use them, are old farts who have nothing better to do other than
waste whatever remaining time they have on this earth in trying to
appear useful for some cause - in this case pretending they have a great
big interest in trying to convert the world to use a Linux distro of
their "choice" when they perfectly well know, but still delude
themselves that this is not the case, that 99.9% of the world is not
going to stop using Windows or Apple MAC but change over to some Linux
distro.

The only interest the old farts seem to have in this whole affair is
having some sort of social life by belonging to the mail lists and where
they can parry and trust with words and put down people at the first
opportunity.

They even go around organising "Release Parties" - such as is currently
being done here in Australia - to "celebrate" the release of Natty in a
couple of weeks!

The only comments the old farts can contribute to some adverse remark
about something such as what is being talked about here is, "But its
ONLY a Beta, HA, HA, HA, and EVERYBODY knows you pay no attention to
what a Beta doesn't do! and so don't complain but help to propagate this
delusion that your "testing" is important and submit a BUG report
(woohoo! a BUG report - that magical expression, "BUG report", which
suddenly is intended to confer on you membership of the inner circle of
a special corp of Boy Scouts whose members are most likely to have an
average age of 75 years!).

How many young people have been converted to using Linux - but let's
say, Ubuntu?

Bugger all I would say.

The only people talking about Linux are old farts - not young people.
The young ones go for the latest version of Firefox and Chrome - but
even these are not available to them in a released version of a distro
because such things are not backported.

And when some young person comes along and starts to ask questions, what
do the old farts say to him/her? "Don't expect us to do your
homework/assignment for you! Go and google for the information you free
loader!".

About 4 years ago in another distro I suggested to the 'boss' of the
project to give a copy of the distro to all the kids in his street and
ask them to tear the system apart and find all the faults in it so that
the faults can be rectified before it is finally released. Yeah,
right..... The only people still doing any testing are old
farts......and young kids don't get to know Linux.

And speaking of which..... and I will not make any further
comment/observation on this matter.... some parts of Natty crashed on me
today. When the crashes occurred I was asked if I want to submit a
report to help the developers solve the crashes - I answered YES and
reports were generated; but then I was asked to provide my name, e-mail
address, a password for some account, the size of my shoes, religious
inclinations, my inside leg measurement - which I refused to do and so
the developers got zilch to help them solve the crashes. If the system
generates the damn crash report why the heck should I provide all such
unnecessary details? Is someone afraid that I could waste my time coming
up with a bogus report just to get my jollies off?

Anyway, complaining or pointing out some problems is not what using an
operating system is about. I want to use it to do things and not spend
time reporting on hassles. So, from now on just reading what is written
by people and keeping up with the people I got to know here.

When you think about it, many, many people have spent time and effort in
coding, looking for hassles, reporting the hassles only to find now that
whatever they have been doing for a long time has been for nought and
now they - if they consider that there is no other life for them outside
of reporting 'bugs' - have to start all over again because Unity is
here! "Sorry, but stuff this for a joke", is what I expect some people
to conclude.

BC
--
Great Man reaches complete understanding of the main issues; Petty Man reaches complete understanding of the minute details."

Confucius
Alan Pope
2011-04-16 14:24:53 UTC
Permalink
Hi Basil,
I came to the following conclusion last night - and your comments contain
some of those conclusions in one way or another.
<snip>
When the crashes occurred I was asked if I want to submit a report to
help the developers solve the crashes - I answered YES and reports were
generated; but then I was asked to provide my name, e-mail address, a
password for some account, the size of my shoes, religious inclinations, my
inside leg measurement - which I refused to do and so the developers got
zilch to help them solve the crashes. If the system generates the damn crash
report why the heck should I provide all such unnecessary details? Is
someone afraid that I could waste my time coming up with a bogus report just
to get my jollies off?
You already have an account. You signed up over 4 years ago.

https://launchpad.net/~blchupin

Logon as that user and submit your crash reports. If you can't
remember the password, no worries, there is a password reset feature.

Al.
Gilles Gravier
2011-04-16 15:07:59 UTC
Permalink
Hello!
Post by Basil Chupin
Post by Ric Moore
Post by Gilles Gravier
What I want to add to the debate is that this is a "BETA" version. We
are talking about a product not yet finished. Not yet ready for
mission-critical use.
I understand Basil being upset. But in a way, he "asked for it". When
one downloads a beta, one does so expecting to get into trouble, and to
report these bugs. And complaining strongly that a beta is buggy is,
well, to say the least, not what is expected of a user of a beta.
That kind of complaining *MIGHT* be justified *ONLY* once the product is
final... :)
Basil has been around enough to know about Beta's. Now that he's got
some good information, he can make better choices. It just didn't act as
he thought it would/should. Stuff is changing! Heck, I still miss line
numbered BASIC. But, if the installer can check for the fastest mirror,
which there is an option for with RPM, if I recall correctly, it would
be better. I've seen some less than modem speeds recently during
updates. Me, I decided after doing the Fedora thing for some time, that
I don't make a good beta tester. I'm getting too long in the tooth. But,
Basil's thing wasn't that it was a Beta, but that he couldn't get
installed. At that point, it appears more an Alpha than a Beta. :) Ric
I came to the following conclusion last night - and your comments
contain some of those conclusions in one way or another.
The only people who do any 'testing' of these Linux distros, or even
try and use them, are old farts who have nothing better to do other
than waste whatever remaining time they have on this earth in trying
to appear useful for some cause - in this case pretending they have a
great big interest in trying to convert the world to use a Linux
distro of their "choice" when they perfectly well know, but still
delude themselves that this is not the case, that 99.9% of the world
is not going to stop using Windows or Apple MAC but change over to
some Linux distro.
The only interest the old farts seem to have in this whole affair is
having some sort of social life by belonging to the mail lists and
where they can parry and trust with words and put down people at the
first opportunity.
They even go around organising "Release Parties" - such as is
currently being done here in Australia - to "celebrate" the release of
Natty in a couple of weeks!
The only comments the old farts can contribute to some adverse remark
about something such as what is being talked about here is, "But its
ONLY a Beta, HA, HA, HA, and EVERYBODY knows you pay no attention to
what a Beta doesn't do! and so don't complain but help to propagate
this delusion that your "testing" is important and submit a BUG report
(woohoo! a BUG report - that magical expression, "BUG report", which
suddenly is intended to confer on you membership of the inner circle
of a special corp of Boy Scouts whose members are most likely to have
an average age of 75 years!).
I'm an old fart. Heck, I was born before FTP even existed! I was online
when the first commercial (i.e. not research/edu/darpa) internet
operators were set up. When I started using internet, you didn't pay for
it. You provided part of the infrastructure and that was your share of
keeping the thing running... then people started to pay to get internet
for their businesses. When I was in my 2nd job, I had to actually port
PGP to my company MIPS RC-3230 system in order to encrypt an e-mail that
was to be, then, sent by UUCP in order to order a geek T-shirt from Adam
Black in the UK. I was in my 3rd job when Mosaic (the first internet
browser) was announced. And I was wrong in thinking Java would get
nowhere back in 1994 when it was still called Oak.
Post by Basil Chupin
How many young people have been converted to using Linux - but let's
say, Ubuntu?
I was. I was a Windows user. Then my Windows machine broke. I was told
"try Linux". I was already hooked on NetBSD for my server (which has
been online in one shape or another - now running Ubuntu 10.10 - since
1998). I had been using Yggdrasil (anybody on this list still remember
that Linux), Mandrake (now called Mandriva), and had looked at Debian. I
installed Ubuntu 6.04 (that tells you the year) and I was converted. I
was already a 30+ year old fart, granted...
Post by Basil Chupin
Bugger all I would say.
Or you can remain polite.
Post by Basil Chupin
The only people talking about Linux are old farts - not young people.
The young ones go for the latest version of Firefox and Chrome - but
even these are not available to them in a released version of a distro
because such things are not backported.
Say, have you ever been to FOSDEM, Basil? Have you looked at the
demographics of that strongly-Linux-tainted event? The average age is
under 20. At what age do you start calling people old farts? 18?
Post by Basil Chupin
And when some young person comes along and starts to ask questions,
what do the old farts say to him/her? "Don't expect us to do your
homework/assignment for you! Go and google for the information you
free loader!".
You asked the wrong people? Or, refering to my statement above, maybe
you forgot to ask politely...
Post by Basil Chupin
About 4 years ago in another distro I suggested to the 'boss' of the
project to give a copy of the distro to all the kids in his street and
ask them to tear the system apart and find all the faults in it so
that the faults can be rectified before it is finally released. Yeah,
right..... The only people still doing any testing are old
farts......and young kids don't get to know Linux.
Go to FOSDEM. Rethink that statement after.
Post by Basil Chupin
And speaking of which..... and I will not make any further
comment/observation on this matter.... some parts of Natty crashed on
me today. When the crashes occurred I was asked if I want to submit a
report to help the developers solve the crashes - I answered YES and
reports were generated; but then I was asked to provide my name,
e-mail address, a password for some account, the size of my shoes,
religious inclinations, my inside leg measurement - which I refused to
do and so the developers got zilch to help them solve the crashes. If
the system generates the damn crash report why the heck should I
provide all such unnecessary details? Is someone afraid that I could
waste my time coming up with a bogus report just to get my jollies off?
Alan already answered that one... Ovbiously you are becoming an old fart
yourself if you don't remember the account you set up 4 years ago.
Alzheimers? :)
Post by Basil Chupin
Anyway, complaining or pointing out some problems is not what using an
operating system is about. I want to use it to do things and not spend
time reporting on hassles. So, from now on just reading what is
written by people and keeping up with the people I got to know here.
Talking about an operating system... If you want to "us it to do
things"... then don't use a beta. Use a stable released version. Using a
beta is agreeing (explicitely or implicitely depending on how the
project is structured) that you expect to find bugs and constructively
report them so they get fixed.

The only operating system I know of for which its users are unknowing
beta testers is MS Windows when a new release is commercialized. SP1 is
usually the "stable version". :)
Post by Basil Chupin
When you think about it, many, many people have spent time and effort
in coding, looking for hassles, reporting the hassles only to find now
that whatever they have been doing for a long time has been for nought
and now they - if they consider that there is no other life for them
outside of reporting 'bugs' - have to start all over again because
Unity is here! "Sorry, but stuff this for a joke", is what I expect
some people to conclude.
What you probably mean is that this is what YOU conclude.

Fortunately, there are users of Ubuntu, a lot of them here on this list,
that understand what they get into when they download a "beta version",
and submit bugs, ALL OF WHICH (because they follow the process to submit
them) end up in https://launchpad.net/ and are processed by the
development team to make the product better.

Gilles
Mike McGinn
2011-04-16 15:28:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by Gilles Gravier
Hello!
I'm an old fart. Heck, I was born before FTP even existed! I was online
when the first commercial (i.e. not research/edu/darpa) internet
operators were set up. When I started using internet, you didn't pay for
it. You provided part of the infrastructure and that was your share of
keeping the thing running... then people started to pay to get internet
for their businesses. When I was in my 2nd job, I had to actually port
PGP to my company MIPS RC-3230 system in order to encrypt an e-mail that
was to be, then, sent by UUCP in order to order a geek T-shirt from Adam
Black in the UK. I was in my 3rd job when Mosaic (the first internet
browser) was announced. And I was wrong in thinking Java would get
nowhere back in 1994 when it was still called Oak.
Post by Basil Chupin
How many young people have been converted to using Linux - but let's
say, Ubuntu?
I was. I was a Windows user. Then my Windows machine broke. I was told
"try Linux". I was already hooked on NetBSD for my server (which has
been online in one shape or another - now running Ubuntu 10.10 - since
1998). I had been using Yggdrasil (anybody on this list still remember
that Linux), Mandrake (now called Mandriva), and had looked at Debian. I
installed Ubuntu 6.04 (that tells you the year) and I was converted. I
was already a 30+ year old fart, granted...
Gilles
I remember reading the series of articles about porting BSD to the 386 which
appeared in Dr. Dobbs Journal in 1990 or so. The series was by William and
Lynne Jolitz and was a fascinating read. I was writing test software for
LeCroy at the time, software to test the front end electronics that hung at
the end of a particle beam, usually 96 input channels. It could be a lot of
data in memory at times. I was very interested in anything that could get me
away from the DOS 64K segment limit.
--
Mike McGinn FACOCM
You won't look forward to the trip!
No electrons were harmed in sending this message.
** Registered Linux User 377849
Dennis Lewis
2011-04-16 21:24:46 UTC
Permalink
I?m working with a Dell Latitude D610 laptop. I installed Ubuntu 10.10 on this
computer. Everything seems to work ok except my wireless, I went through a lot
of troubleshooting issues and can`t enable wireless. I get a message that says
?Quote" dhcpcd wireless problems. dhcpcd wlan0 removes essid entry in iwconfig.
Any suggestions??www.http://lewis4884.web.officelive.com
http://www.freegifts4kids.com/133.html
https://www.paypal.com/us/mrb/pal=5ZVSSRGR56EV4


This bottom link is a good link for your business, Check it out!! Watch the
video. {Free Trial}
http://www.jdoqocy.com/click-4251306-10808140




________________________________
From: Mike McGinn <mikemcginn at mcginnweb.net>
To: "Ubuntu user technical support, not for general discussions"
<ubuntu-users at lists.ubuntu.com>
Sent: Sat, April 16, 2011 8:28:31 AM
Subject: Re: Oh, please, please, COME ON Ubuntu development people!
Post by Gilles Gravier
Hello!
I'm an old fart. Heck, I was born before FTP even existed! I was online
when the first commercial (i.e. not research/edu/darpa) internet
operators were set up. When I started using internet, you didn't pay for
it. You provided part of the infrastructure and that was your share of
keeping the thing running... then people started to pay to get internet
for their businesses. When I was in my 2nd job, I had to actually port
PGP to my company MIPS RC-3230 system in order to encrypt an e-mail that
was to be, then, sent by UUCP in order to order a geek T-shirt from Adam
Black in the UK. I was in my 3rd job when Mosaic (the first internet
browser) was announced. And I was wrong in thinking Java would get
nowhere back in 1994 when it was still called Oak.
Post by Basil Chupin
How many young people have been converted to using Linux - but let's
say, Ubuntu?
I was. I was a Windows user. Then my Windows machine broke. I was told
"try Linux". I was already hooked on NetBSD for my server (which has
been online in one shape or another - now running Ubuntu 10.10 - since
1998). I had been using Yggdrasil (anybody on this list still remember
that Linux), Mandrake (now called Mandriva), and had looked at Debian. I
installed Ubuntu 6.04 (that tells you the year) and I was converted. I
was already a 30+ year old fart, granted...
Gilles
I remember reading the series of articles about porting BSD to the 386 which
appeared in Dr. Dobbs Journal in 1990 or so. The series was by William and
Lynne Jolitz and was a fascinating read. I was writing test software for
LeCroy at the time, software to test the front end electronics that hung at
the end of a particle beam, usually 96 input channels. It could be a lot of
data in memory at times. I was very interested in anything that could get me
away from the DOS 64K segment limit.
--
Mike McGinn??? ??? FACOCM
You won't look forward to the trip!
No electrons were harmed in sending this message.
** Registered Linux User 377849
--
ubuntu-users mailing list
ubuntu-users at lists.ubuntu.com
Modify settings or unsubscribe at:
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Jordon Bedwell
2011-04-16 21:38:35 UTC
Permalink
*I?m working with a Dell Latitude D610 laptop. I installed Ubuntu 10.10
on this computer. Everything seems to work ok except my wireless, I went
through a lot of troubleshooting issues and can`t enable wireless. I get
a message that says ?Quote" dhcpcd wireless problems. dhcpcd wlan0
removes essid entry in iwconfig. Any suggestions?*
www.http://lewis4884.web.officelive.com
http://www.freegifts4kids.com/133.html
https://www.paypal.com/us/mrb/pal=5ZVSSRGR56EV4
Pro tip: Keep your mouse cursor off the fail button.
That means:

1.) Don't top post. It breaks the flow...
2.) Use plain text email. Big ass fonts with backgrounds are retarded.
3.) Don't top post. It breaks the flow...
4.) Use plain text email. Big ass fonts with backgrounds are retarded.
5.) Don't top post. It breaks the flow...
6.) Don't top post. It breaks the flow...
7.) Don't top post. It breaks the flow...
8.) Don't put worthless links to spam sites on your post.
9.) Refer to the pro tip, create a post it note and put it up near you.
simpleLinux
2011-04-17 07:54:58 UTC
Permalink
I've been using yggdrasil long.... Weird but fun :)... And before xp
is released, I tried something called windows whistler beta, and it DO
mess up my pc hahahaha...

Meanwhile: using beta is about to agree that you"ll found some bugs...
Henceforth, beta is not to be used as an ordinary released distro..
Think that beta is made to developers or freewill testers so they can
make a better tomorrow... That's why before a release, there's alpha
and beta...

I think the nearby repo is problemo :/ downloading all apps for ubuntu
in a very weird speed..

_______

Sorry if I about to brake the chain... :p
Post by Jordon Bedwell
*I?m working with a Dell Latitude D610 laptop. I installed Ubuntu 10.10
on this computer. Everything seems to work ok except my wireless, I went
through a lot of troubleshooting issues and can`t enable wireless. I get
a message that says ?Quote" dhcpcd wireless problems. dhcpcd wlan0
removes essid entry in iwconfig. Any suggestions?*
www.http://lewis4884.web.officelive.com
http://www.freegifts4kids.com/133.html
https://www.paypal.com/us/mrb/pal=5ZVSSRGR56EV4
Pro tip: Keep your mouse cursor off the fail button.
1.) Don't top post. ?It breaks the flow...
2.) Use plain text email. ?Big ass fonts with backgrounds are retarded.
3.) Don't top post. It breaks the flow...
4.) Use plain text email. ?Big ass fonts with backgrounds are retarded.
5.) Don't top post. ?It breaks the flow...
6.) Don't top post. ?It breaks the flow...
7.) Don't top post. ?It breaks the flow...
8.) Don't put worthless links to spam sites on your post.
9.) Refer to the pro tip, create a post it note and put it up near you.
--
ubuntu-users mailing list
ubuntu-users at lists.ubuntu.com
Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-users
--
*Fariz Luqman*
The Chairman of SimpleLinux
Visit: http://www.simplelinux.tk
Fb: http://facebook.com/simpleLinux

"There IS a Malaysian Linux Distro"

---
Facebook: facebook.com/farizluqman
Ric Moore
2011-04-16 16:53:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by Basil Chupin
And when some young person comes along and starts to ask questions, what
do the old farts say to him/her? "Don't expect us to do your
homework/assignment for you! Go and google for the information you free
loader!".
You bet! Waving my cane, in their general direction, is the only
exercise I get. But, it does reduce the liver-spots. :) Ric
--
My father, Victor Moore (Vic) used to say:
"There are two Great Sins in the world...
..the Sin of Ignorance, and the Sin of Stupidity.
Only the former may be overcome." R.I.P. Dad.
Linux user# 44256
chris
2011-04-16 19:52:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ric Moore
Post by Basil Chupin
And when some young person comes along and starts to ask questions, what
do the old farts say to him/her? "Don't expect us to do your
homework/assignment for you! Go and google for the information you free
loader!".
You bet! Waving my cane, in their general direction, is the only
exercise I get. But, it does reduce the liver-spots. :) Ric
Don't you think it would be nice to move this to sounder. I am having
trouble getting my wheelchair over here.
Picks up ear trumpet and waves peevishly at nurse aid to push in
required direction.............. mumbling about his first z80 processor
Gilles Gravier
2011-04-17 08:55:20 UTC
Permalink
Hi!
Post by chris
Post by Ric Moore
Post by Basil Chupin
And when some young person comes along and starts to ask questions, what
do the old farts say to him/her? "Don't expect us to do your
homework/assignment for you! Go and google for the information you free
loader!".
You bet! Waving my cane, in their general direction, is the only
exercise I get. But, it does reduce the liver-spots. :) Ric
Don't you think it would be nice to move this to sounder. I am having
trouble getting my wheelchair over here.
Picks up ear trumpet and waves peevishly at nurse aid to push in
required direction.............. mumbling about his first z80 processo
Your Z80 was a baby when I was coding in assembly on y 6809. :)

But I have to admit, Z80 was the first really fancy CPU I used on my
TRS-80, and it's brother NSC-800 on the Canon X-07. Had to solder in the
additional 24kb of RAM on that Canon to get enough space to write the
programs I wanted for it. Good thing at the time Canon sent me the full
technical docs of the little machine when I sent them a letter asking
for it so that I could "hack into the machine". I was around 18 years
old. The TRS-80 still boots but has video RAM issues. The X-07 works
fine! With all the extra RAM still crammed inside it with meters of
ultra-thin wires soldered into place.

Yeah... Maybe I should have the nurse push my wheelchair over to the
SOUNDER BBS... :)

Oh... THANK-YOU, Basil! Thank-you for triggering this delightful burst
of nostalgia amongst us old farts! Guys (gals, too) what would we do
without Basil!

Gilles.
Ric Moore
2011-04-17 18:08:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by Gilles Gravier
The TRS-80 still boots but has video RAM issues. The X-07 works
fine! With all the extra RAM still crammed inside it with meters of
ultra-thin wires soldered into place.
On my first Apple ][ minus (as opposed to a "plus"), the ram chips were
in sockets. So, you carefully leveraged them out, used an ink eraser
carefully on the pins to remove the oxide and shoved then back in,
firmly home. That always worked. I loved it that the lid easily removed
without a tool. Jobs blew it all later, for sure. <spits> Ric
--
My father, Victor Moore (Vic) used to say:
"There are two Great Sins in the world...
..the Sin of Ignorance, and the Sin of Stupidity.
Only the former may be overcome." R.I.P. Dad.
Linux user# 44256
Jordon Bedwell
2011-04-17 19:38:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ric Moore
Post by Gilles Gravier
The TRS-80 still boots but has video RAM issues. The X-07 works
fine! With all the extra RAM still crammed inside it with meters of
ultra-thin wires soldered into place.
On my first Apple ][ minus (as opposed to a "plus"), the ram chips were
in sockets. So, you carefully leveraged them out, used an ink eraser
carefully on the pins to remove the oxide and shoved then back in,
firmly home. That always worked. I loved it that the lid easily removed
without a tool. Jobs blew it all later, for sure. <spits> Ric
I'll stand next to you and join in /shakefist
I don't normally spit so I won't do that but I'll scream and shake fist.
chris
2011-04-17 20:24:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by Gilles Gravier
The TRS-80 still boots but has video RAM issues. The X-07 works
fine! With all the extra RAM still crammed inside it with meters of
ultra-thin wires soldered into place.
I loved those Trs-80s. kicked my self for selling mine to replace with a
commodore 32 sigh Those were the days...............
--
Cheers the kiwi
Gilles Gravier
2011-04-18 06:38:55 UTC
Permalink
Hi!
Post by chris
Post by Gilles Gravier
The TRS-80 still boots but has video RAM issues. The X-07 works
fine! With all the extra RAM still crammed inside it with meters of
ultra-thin wires soldered into place.
I loved those Trs-80s. kicked my self for selling mine to replace with a
commodore 32 sigh Those were the days...............
Do like I do. Get an Android phone. Install aDosBox on it. Run a TRS-80
emulator in aDosBox. Run Sublogic FS-II and Dancing Demon in the TRS-80
emulator.

Booyah!

(we now should get back to our original programming)
Gilles.
chris
2011-04-18 08:13:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by Gilles Gravier
Hi!
Post by chris
Post by Gilles Gravier
The TRS-80 still boots but has video RAM issues. The X-07 works
fine! With all the extra RAM still crammed inside it with meters of
ultra-thin wires soldered into place.
I loved those Trs-80s. kicked my self for selling mine to replace with a
commodore 32 sigh Those were the days...............
Do like I do. Get an Android phone. Install aDosBox on it. Run a TRS-80
emulator in aDosBox. Run Sublogic FS-II and Dancing Demon in the TRS-80
emulator.
Booyah!
(we now should get back to our original programming)
Gilles.
Not a bad idea
cheers
Liam Proven
2011-04-20 22:19:54 UTC
Permalink
Don't you think it would be nice to move this to sounder. ?I am having
trouble getting my wheelchair over here.
?Picks up ear trumpet and waves peevishly at nurse aid to push in
required direction.............. ?mumbling about his first z80 processor
We can't. The Powers that Be have just shut it down.
--
Liam Proven ? Info & profile: http://www.google.com/profiles/lproven
Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com
Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419
AIM/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven ? MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? ICQ: 73187508
chris
2011-04-20 23:45:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by Liam Proven
Post by chris
Don't you think it would be nice to move this to sounder. I am having
trouble getting my wheelchair over here.
Picks up ear trumpet and waves peevishly at nurse aid to push in
required direction.............. mumbling about his first z80 processor
We can't. The Powers that Be have just shut it down.
True, which makes me wonder about the whole Ubuntu/Canonical thing.
Fortunately as you know well, there are other distros, I am at the
moment playing with PCLinux OS, and Denbian stable. On my production
machine I am switching to Mint 10.04.2 for the mean time whilst I see
what happens with Canonical.
cheers Chris
Post by Liam Proven
-
Liam Proven ? Info & profile: http://www.google.com/profiles/lproven
Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com
Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419
AIM/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven ? MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? ICQ: 73187508
Liam Proven
2011-04-21 00:06:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by chris
Post by Liam Proven
Don't you think it would be nice to move this to sounder. ?I am having
trouble getting my wheelchair over here.
?Picks up ear trumpet and waves peevishly at nurse aid to push in
required direction.............. ?mumbling about his first z80 processor
We can't. The Powers that Be have just shut it down.
True, which makes me wonder about the whole Ubuntu/Canonical thing.
Fortunately as you know well, there are other distros, I am at the
moment playing with PCLinux OS, and Denbian stable. ?On my production
machine I am switching to Mint 10.04.2 for the mean time whilst I see
what happens with Canonical.
Indeed.

I've been looking into what Clem Lefebvre is planning for Mint 11.
Apparently, it will be based on GNOME 3, but with the traditional
panel layout - no GNOME Shell. I didn't even realise this was
possible, TBH. That certainly sounds like it will be worth a look for
those who like neither Unity nor the GNOME Shell, or whose hardware
isn't up to running them in their full composited glory.

There is also now a second Debian-based Mint, to go with LMDE, the
Linux Mint Debian Edition, which currently uses a GNOME 2-based
desktop. There is now Linux Mint Xfce 201104 as well, which like LMDE
is also based directly off Debian and not Ubuntu.

There are more options opening up for people who wish to leave Ubuntu,
Unity and GNOME 3 but keep the Debian base and the power of apt-get
and dpkg.

I'm not planning to decamp just yet myself. I'm intrigued by Unity. I
am playing with it in a VM and whereas I don't find it an obvious or
intuitive environment, I will certainly give it a try on native
hardware when it's released. I very much like Ubuntu's ease of use,
polish, integration, the ready availability of drivers and so on - all
things which it does much better than Debian. However, it seems to be
more and more apparent to me that Ubuntu is not a democracy and we
users must just take what we're given and not grumble about it.
Otherwise you'll suddenly find that your desktop has changed
radically, or your favourite mailing list is shut down. :?(
--
Liam Proven ? Info & profile: http://www.google.com/profiles/lproven
Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com
Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419
AIM/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven ? MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? ICQ: 73187508
chris
2011-04-21 00:23:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by Liam Proven
Post by chris
Post by Liam Proven
Post by chris
Don't you think it would be nice to move this to sounder. I am having
trouble getting my wheelchair over here.
Picks up ear trumpet and waves peevishly at nurse aid to push in
required direction.............. mumbling about his first z80 processor
We can't. The Powers that Be have just shut it down.
True, which makes me wonder about the whole Ubuntu/Canonical thing.
Fortunately as you know well, there are other distros, I am at the
moment playing with PCLinux OS, and Denbian stable. On my production
machine I am switching to Mint 10.04.2 for the mean time whilst I see
what happens with Canonical.
Indeed.
I've been looking into what Clem Lefebvre is planning for Mint 11.
Apparently, it will be based on GNOME 3, but with the traditional
panel layout - no GNOME Shell. I didn't even realise this was
possible, TBH. That certainly sounds like it will be worth a look for
those who like neither Unity nor the GNOME Shell, or whose hardware
isn't up to running them in their full composited glory.
There is also now a second Debian-based Mint, to go with LMDE, the
Linux Mint Debian Edition, which currently uses a GNOME 2-based
desktop. There is now Linux Mint Xfce 201104 as well, which like LMDE
is also based directly off Debian and not Ubuntu.
There are more options opening up for people who wish to leave Ubuntu,
Unity and GNOME 3 but keep the Debian base and the power of apt-get
and dpkg.
I'm not planning to decamp just yet myself. I'm intrigued by Unity. I
am playing with it in a VM and whereas I don't find it an obvious or
intuitive environment, I will certainly give it a try on native
hardware when it's released. I very much like Ubuntu's ease of use,
polish, integration, the ready availability of drivers and so on - all
things which it does much better than Debian. However, it seems to be
more and more apparent to me that Ubuntu is not a democracy and we
users must just take what we're given and not grumble about it.
Otherwise you'll suddenly find that your desktop has changed
radically, or your favourite mailing list is shut down. :?(
Thanks for the Information Liam. I did not realise that Mint was this
active. Not having broadband I have to rely on dialup. I( I live in way
rural NZ)
My experiences with Ubuntu over their removal of dialup from the
standard cd distribution was interesting to say the least.

It was at that point I decided other distros were worth investigating.

I had used redhat way back when, but like you initially found Ubuntu to
be polished etc. Started using it about version 4 something from
memory. Still have one old clunker toddling along with 6.04, and my
wife will not move from her old IBM running 8.04.

Have not looked at 11.04 yet, as I am waiting for the rc which a
university friend of mine will download and post to me. So that will be
my first look at Unity. Not feeling too encouraged at the moment I
confess.

Have registered with the url you sent me.
Regards Chris aka the kiwi
Liam Proven
2011-04-21 00:41:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by Liam Proven
Post by chris
Post by Liam Proven
Don't you think it would be nice to move this to sounder. ?I am having
trouble getting my wheelchair over here.
?Picks up ear trumpet and waves peevishly at nurse aid to push in
required direction.............. ?mumbling about his first z80 processor
We can't. The Powers that Be have just shut it down.
True, which makes me wonder about the whole Ubuntu/Canonical thing.
Fortunately as you know well, there are other distros, I am at the
moment playing with PCLinux OS, and Denbian stable. ?On my production
machine I am switching to Mint 10.04.2 for the mean time whilst I see
what happens with Canonical.
Indeed.
I've been looking into what Clem Lefebvre is planning for Mint 11.
Apparently, it will be based on GNOME 3, but with the traditional
panel layout - no GNOME Shell. I didn't even realise this was
possible, TBH. That certainly sounds like it will be worth a look for
those who like neither Unity nor the GNOME Shell, or whose hardware
isn't up to running them in their full composited glory.
There is also now a second Debian-based Mint, to go with LMDE, the
Linux Mint Debian Edition, which currently uses a GNOME 2-based
desktop. There is now Linux Mint Xfce 201104 as well, which like LMDE
is also based directly off Debian and not Ubuntu.
There are more options opening up for people who wish to leave Ubuntu,
Unity and GNOME 3 but keep the Debian base and the power of apt-get
and dpkg.
I'm not planning to decamp just yet myself. I'm intrigued by Unity. I
am playing with it in a VM and whereas I don't find it an obvious or
intuitive environment, I will certainly give it a try on native
hardware when it's released. I very much like Ubuntu's ease of use,
polish, integration, the ready availability of drivers and so on - all
things which it does much better than Debian. However, it seems to be
more and more apparent to me that Ubuntu is not a democracy and we
users must just take what we're given and not grumble about it.
Otherwise you'll suddenly find that your desktop has changed
radically, or your favourite mailing list is shut down. :?(
Thanks for the Information Liam. ?I did not realise that Mint was this
active. ?Not having broadband I have to rely on dialup. I( I live in way
rural NZ)
My experiences with Ubuntu over their removal of dialup from the
standard cd distribution was interesting to say the least.
I bet!

If you are in commutable distance from somewhere with broadband and an
Internet caf?, I'd recommend investing in a couple of 8GB or 12GB USB
thumbdrives. You can fit several downloaded ISO images on to one of
them to take home with you, and if you have a little 1GB one, you can
use Unetbootin (or the Ubuntu Startup Disk creator tool) to make a
flash drive bootable, so that you can try out different distros
without burning CDs. So long as your PC can boot from USB, of course.

I used to download various Linux distros on dialup back around the
late 1990s and turn of the century. It typically took a couple of
days. At least with an old PC running Smoothwall acting as a router, I
could use a different computer and get my email and surf a bit (just
*very* slowly) while I was downloading.

A download manager that supports resuming a broken download is also a
big help. These days I use DownThemAll for Firefox, which I think does
this. Works great on Linux. http://www.downthemall.net/

If it's an option, you should investigate if you can get ISDN. At a
guaranteed 64kbps, it's substantially quicker than plain dialup (where
if you get 30-40kbps, you're doing well) and if you have a suitable
router, you can "aggregate" two channels into a single 128kbps link.
Pretty much any ISP that supports 56K modems will support ISDN dialup
as well, because actually 56K requires the ISP's end to be an ISDN
device, not a POTS modem.

Looks like TelecomNZ does offer it:
http://www.telecom.co.nz/content/0,8748,100173-204156,00.html
It was at that point I decided other distros were worth investigating.
I had used redhat way back when, but like you initially found Ubuntu to
be polished etc. ?Started using it about version 4 something from
memory.
IIRC, Ubuntu 4.10 was the very first version. That's when I started,
too, migrating across from SUSE 9.something.
Still have one old clunker toddling along with 6.04, and my
wife will not move from her old IBM running 8.04.
6.06? That's pretty ancient! Going out of support any day now, too.
You can upgrade from that straight to 8.04 - if you download the Hardy
"alternate CD", you can upgrade from CD without Internet access.

By the same token, if the machine is reasonably recent, you can
upgrade from 8.04 straight to 10.04 using the Lucid alternate CD, too.
I did this on a server recently and it worked a treat. Again, no
Internet access required.

8.04 to 10.04 is not a huge wrench, but the newer version is a lot
quicker to boot up and shut down, among other things. It's worth
doing.
Have not looked at 11.04 yet, as I am waiting for the rc which a
university friend of mine will download and post to me. ?So that will be
my first look at Unity. ?Not feeling too encouraged at the moment I
confess.
I believe there isn't going to be an RC for it, just a 2nd beta
version. Given that it's a matter of weeks, I'd just wait for the
final thing.

I have a few mates in Aotearoa, in the big cities, e.g. Wellington -
if you need some locals to post you CDs, by the way, I can probably
hook you up. :?) Let me know.
Have registered with the url you sent me.
Good stuff!
--
Liam Proven ? Info & profile: http://www.google.com/profiles/lproven
Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com
Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419
AIM/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven ? MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? ICQ: 73187508
Alan Pope
2011-04-21 00:42:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by chris
Have not looked at 11.04 yet, as I am waiting for the rc which a
university friend of mine will download and post to me.
There's no release candidate for Ubuntu 11.04.

This time round it's two beta releases then final build on the 28th,
one week from today.

https://wiki.ubuntu.com/NattyReleaseSchedule

I can see why some think it won't be ready.

Cheers,
Al.
chris
2011-04-21 01:29:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by Alan Pope
Post by chris
Have not looked at 11.04 yet, as I am waiting for the rc which a
university friend of mine will download and post to me.
There's no release candidate for Ubuntu 11.04.
This time round it's two beta releases then final build on the 28th,
one week from today.
https://wiki.ubuntu.com/NattyReleaseSchedule
I can see why some think it won't be ready.
Cheers,
Al.
Thank you AL
Chris
Tom H
2011-04-21 12:12:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by Liam Proven
Post by chris
Post by Liam Proven
Don't you think it would be nice to move this to sounder. ?I am having
trouble getting my wheelchair over here.
We can't. The Powers that Be have just shut it down.
True, which makes me wonder about the whole Ubuntu/Canonical thing.
Fortunately as you know well, there are other distros, I am at the
moment playing with PCLinux OS, and Denbian stable. ?On my production
machine I am switching to Mint 10.04.2 for the mean time whilst I see
what happens with Canonical.
I've been looking into what Clem Lefebvre is planning for Mint 11.
Apparently, it will be based on GNOME 3, but with the traditional
panel layout - no GNOME Shell. I didn't even realise this was
possible, TBH. That certainly sounds like it will be worth a look for
those who like neither Unity nor the GNOME Shell, or whose hardware
isn't up to running them in their full composited glory.
There is also now a second Debian-based Mint, to go with LMDE, the
Linux Mint Debian Edition, which currently uses a GNOME 2-based
desktop. There is now Linux Mint Xfce 201104 as well, which like LMDE
is also based directly off Debian and not Ubuntu.
There are more options opening up for people who wish to leave Ubuntu,
Unity and GNOME 3 but keep the Debian base and the power of apt-get
and dpkg.
I'm not planning to decamp just yet myself. I'm intrigued by Unity. I
am playing with it in a VM and whereas I don't find it an obvious or
intuitive environment, I will certainly give it a try on native
hardware when it's released.
Ubuntu 11.04 has the "classic" desktop ("Ubuntu Classic") and GNOME 3
has a legacy/fallback mode so if you don't like the new interfaces,
you can choose to use the old ones. Maybe Mint'll have the
legacy/fallback mode enabled by default.

Unity might require a *little* effort to get used to it but it's good interface.
Liam Proven
2011-04-21 13:30:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tom H
Post by Liam Proven
Post by chris
Post by Liam Proven
Don't you think it would be nice to move this to sounder. ?I am having
trouble getting my wheelchair over here.
We can't. The Powers that Be have just shut it down.
True, which makes me wonder about the whole Ubuntu/Canonical thing.
Fortunately as you know well, there are other distros, I am at the
moment playing with PCLinux OS, and Denbian stable. ?On my production
machine I am switching to Mint 10.04.2 for the mean time whilst I see
what happens with Canonical.
I've been looking into what Clem Lefebvre is planning for Mint 11.
Apparently, it will be based on GNOME 3, but with the traditional
panel layout - no GNOME Shell. I didn't even realise this was
possible, TBH. That certainly sounds like it will be worth a look for
those who like neither Unity nor the GNOME Shell, or whose hardware
isn't up to running them in their full composited glory.
There is also now a second Debian-based Mint, to go with LMDE, the
Linux Mint Debian Edition, which currently uses a GNOME 2-based
desktop. There is now Linux Mint Xfce 201104 as well, which like LMDE
is also based directly off Debian and not Ubuntu.
There are more options opening up for people who wish to leave Ubuntu,
Unity and GNOME 3 but keep the Debian base and the power of apt-get
and dpkg.
I'm not planning to decamp just yet myself. I'm intrigued by Unity. I
am playing with it in a VM and whereas I don't find it an obvious or
intuitive environment, I will certainly give it a try on native
hardware when it's released.
Ubuntu 11.04 has the "classic" desktop ("Ubuntu Classic") and GNOME 3
has a legacy/fallback mode so if you don't like the new interfaces,
you can choose to use the old ones. Maybe Mint'll have the
legacy/fallback mode enabled by default.
I didn't know that about GNOME 3 - typically, the snazzy promotional
website, stuffed with just-slightly-irritating videos, is scant on
actual hard information.

I did know about Unity's fallback, as I've tried it. It might be
called "Ubuntu classic" but it isn't. It retains one of the features I
most dislike about Unity - the single menu bar at the top of the
screen. I can live with this on the Mac, although I prefer the
KDE/GNOME1+2/Windows way of menus in the window itself.

(Actually, best of all, I prefer the Acorn RISC OS way of only having
context menus.)

But an auto-hiding menu bar is, I think, a *disastrous* idea. One that
by design partially occludes the name of the app as well is just that
tiny bit worse.

The only thing worse than auto-hiding menus is removal of the Quit
option, which is planned for a future release. I use an Android phone
which has no Quit option and I absolutely detest the "feature" - it is
a nightmare and significantly impedes performance, not to mention
making certain operations difficult or annoying.

(E.g., leaving the browser *sometimes* leaves windows open and
sometimes doesn't, with no discernable pattern. But leaving the
Contacts app *always* goes back to the list, even if you are in
mid-edit, so it is *extremely* inconvenient to cut & paste info from
another app into a contacts record.)
Post by Tom H
Unity might require a *little* effort to get used to it but it's good interface.
This may be the case, but what it fails to acknowledge is that some of
us have polished, refined workflows based on customised versions of
the existing GUI.

FWIW, I also am a Mac user, and a Windows user, and on the Mac I have
certain fairly sophisticated methods of driving the interface,
involving minor customisations, which Unity is completely unable to
support. E.g. the Unity app search is no use to me, as I don't have a
Windows key. Nor does my laptop. On the Mac, I drop an alias to my
Applications folder into the Dock and that gives me a hierarchical app
menu - but Ubuntu doesn't have an Apps folder, nor any analogue of
Windows' Start menu folder full of shortcuts, so I can't reproduce
this functionality either and must use the deeply crippled
not-quite-full-screen apps browser.

Ah well. I shall try to get used to it, but when the "no quit" option
is removed, I am off to a different desktop, even if I have to build
my own Ubuntu Remix.
--
Liam Proven ? Info & profile: http://www.google.com/profiles/lproven
Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com
Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419
AIM/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven ? MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? ICQ: 73187508
Douglas Pollard
2011-04-21 14:26:34 UTC
Permalink
AIM/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven ? MSN:lproven at hotmail.com ? ICQ: 73187508
-- ubuntu-users mailing list ubuntu-users at lists.ubuntu.com
I am will be leaving as well but am not sure where to go. I am not
mad at anyone over the closing of Sounder as I put myself in that
position. However, I have never in my life before accepted anything for
nothing. Give me your old lawnmower and I will mow your grass for a time
or fix your car.
I know if you give me something, you will soon look down on me. If
you give me something, I can't say it's not good enough improve it.
If I buy it, I can tell you if you if you don't make it better I
won't buy it again. I will vote with my pocket book. When I spend my
money I am always in charge. I can walk away any time I want,and
someone else will except it. I know I can donate money, but that
carries no power.
I just realised I feel like I am on Welfare and from Conical point
of view I am. I will buy software as soon as I decide which to buy. I
am considering RED Hat or other propitiatory software. I may consider
Debian if I can be an active voting member of an organisation?? Even
that is not like having the real power of money. Sorry about this
off topic post. There seems no place else to go with it. Doug
Cybe R. Wizard
2011-04-21 15:28:48 UTC
Permalink
On Thu, 21 Apr 2011 10:26:34 -0400
Post by Douglas Pollard
I just realised I feel like I am on Welfare and from Conical
point of view I am.
Good point. Its interesting to me that the Ubuntu users, the very
folks who have made Ubuntu great over the course of the past few years,
are now the red-headed step children with little to no voice in the
'Community'. (as opposed to 'community,' donchaknow)

Big 'C,' little 'c'; its all part of the bug Ubu can't seem to recognize.

Ah, well, it was fun while it lasted but it seems like positions of
power always go to people's heads.

Goodbye, Ubuntu. Like Douglas and /so many/ others (just check the
Debian list for Ubu expatriates), I'm voting with my feet since I don't
have a voice. I'm going on back to /your/ Ubu roots. The Debian
community isn't so holier-than-thou as to refuse people their right to
voice opinions.

Cybe R. Wizard
--
Ubuntu: For when you wish you had an Ipad.
Liam Proven
2011-04-21 15:47:50 UTC
Permalink
? ?I am will be leaving as well but am not sure where to go. ?I am not mad
at anyone ?over the closing of Sounder as I put myself in that position.
?However, I have never in my life before accepted anything for nothing. Give
me your old lawnmower and I will mow your grass for a time or fix your car.
? ? I know if you give me something, you will soon look down on me. If you
give me something, I can't say it's not good enough improve it.
? ? If I buy it, I can tell you if you if you don't make it better I won't
buy it again. I will vote with my pocket book. When I spend my money I am
always in charge. ?I can walk away any time I want,and someone else will
except it. ?I know I can donate money, but that carries no power.
? ?I just realised I feel like I am on Welfare and from Conical point of
view I am.
By thwe way, the company behind Ubuntu is called "Canonical" and not "Conical."

That is a little strange a reaction, from my point of view, but I
guess it can't be helped.

The thing is, sometimes in life, you *do* get something for nothing.
The air that we all breathe is free, as is the sunshine of a summer's
day.

The way to look at Free software is this. Computer software is just a
list of instructions. You need the machine to perform the instructions
- that's what you pay for, a physical thing.

Now, the proprietary-software companies, like Microsoft, want you to
*buy* their lists of instructions. That's all you get, but if you get
your machine to follow the instructions, it will do all kinds of
useful things. But all you buy off Microsoft is the instructions - not
even the medium they're written down on.

Instructions, though, are not magical. If I give you a set of
instructions for building a 17th century battleship, that is quite
complicated - but a set of instructions for making toast is not.

The thing is that when Microsoft started out, home computers came with
no list of instructions at all. Nobody had made such things. So the
processes were complicated and worth money.

Now, though, it's been done many times. The instructions are common
knowledge. You don't need to buy them any more - you can just download
them for free off the Internet.

What Canonical does is polish up these free instructions - they didn't
write them, or very very little of them; they are all out there, free
as the air, for anyone to use. The snag is, though they were free,
they were complicated and hard to follow, with many
mutually-contradictory sets of lists.

Lots of companies have been offering their versions of the list of
instructions called "Linux" for years. Most sold them in a fancy box
with a manual and a bit of support for money, or you could download
them - no box, no disk, no help - for nothing.

Mark Shuttleworth came along and sponsored a bunch of people to
produce a nice short set of clear instructions and is giving it away
for nothing. He hopes to make money from it - the support you can buy
from Canonical is not free - but mostly he is doing it to help the
community, to give something back. He built a company around Linux and
sold it for US$600 Million at the turn of the century; now he is
returning the favour by making a free set of lists that's easy enough
for anyone.

You're not getting charity. Yes, it's good of him to do it, it's
generous, but then, he did use this software to get *extremely* rich.
Now he's giving something back. He's a good bloke like that.

You don't feel guilty for breathing and not paying, nor for walking in
the summer sun - the sun is not giving you a charity handout! By the
same token, don't feel that you're getting charity in the form of
Ubuntu.

You can certainly buy Linux if you want. I have tried, run and
reviewed many commercial distributions: Mandriva, SUSE, Caldera, Corel
LinuxOS, Xandros, Lindows, Freespire, Red Hat and others. Some were
good, some less so.

My personal favourites were Caldera and Corel LinuxOS / Xandros (the
last 2 are the same thing under different names). None exist any more.

SUSE is big and bloated and fat and slow. I ran it for years but I
never liked it all that much - it was just as good as it got back
then. I tried it again recently and it has not improved. But if you
want to pay, you can - you'll be paying Novell, who own it now.

Mandriva is better, and they're a small French company who need the
money! It's not as smooth as Ubuntu, though.

Red Hat Linux doesn't exist any more. Now you can either use Fedora
for free (I find it rather rough and unfinished and don't recommend
it) or pay *thousands* for Red Hat Enterprise Linux. I don't recommend
that, either - it's a big-company thing and very very expensive.

If you want something with Ubuntu's polish but from someone else, your
best bet is Linux Mint. It's free but they are very happy to accept
donations.

But don't feel that you are receiving charity when you use Free
software. You're not, not any more than you are when you write a
letter and know where to put the address on the page and how to form
the letters with a pen. That all comes from lists of instructions that
you got, probably for free, when you were a kid at school, and you
didn't and don't feel that you received charity then, do you?

Telling someone how to do something is not an act of charity, like
giving money to the homeless. It's just being neighbourly. If your
neighbour mows your lawn for you, you wouldn't give them money for it,
would you? If you tried, they would probably be offended.

Well, Sounder /was/ the place - but since it's gone now, there is a
new, non-Ubuntu Sounder list. It's here:
On Wed, Apr 20, 2011 at 3:54 AM, John McCabe-Dansted
http://groups.google.com/group/bikeshed

Do please come and join us there!
--
Liam Proven ? Info & profile: http://www.google.com/profiles/lproven
Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com
Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419
AIM/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven ? MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? ICQ: 73187508
Smoot Carl-Mitchell
2011-04-21 16:02:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by Liam Proven
Red Hat Linux doesn't exist any more. Now you can either use Fedora
for free (I find it rather rough and unfinished and don't recommend
it) or pay *thousands* for Red Hat Enterprise Linux. I don't recommend
that, either - it's a big-company thing and very very expensive.
RHEL is not that expensive. The actual OS is free. You pay for support
on a subscription basis. Support these days is around $300 US per year
per server. And if you do not want to pay Red hat for support, you can
always run CentOS which is free and is identical to RHEL, RPM for RPM,
except for some of the graphics collateral.
--
Smoot Carl-Mitchell
System/Network Architect
voice: +1 480 922-7313
cell: +1 602 421-9005
smoot at tic.com
Jim Byrnes
2011-04-21 16:04:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by Liam Proven
Well, Sounder /was/ the place - but since it's gone now, there is a
On Wed, Apr 20, 2011 at 3:54 AM, John McCabe-Dansted
http://groups.google.com/group/bikeshed
Do please come and join us there!
I've seen many references to Sounder but never went there. What exactly
was Sounder and why was it shutdown?

Regards, Jim
Liam Proven
2011-04-21 16:16:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by Liam Proven
Well, Sounder /was/ the place - but since it's gone now, there is a
On Wed, Apr 20, 2011 at 3:54 AM, John McCabe-Dansted
http://groups.google.com/group/bikeshed
Do please come and join us there!
I've seen many references to Sounder but never went there. What exactly was
Sounder and why was it shutdown?
Ubuntu Sounder was the place for non-support-related discussion about
Ubuntu and Linux in general.

After a recent thread expressing dissatisfaction with the forthcoming
Unity desktop GUI, I suggested that Linux Mint might be a suitable
alternative for those who did not want Unity but liked Ubuntu and
classic Gnome.

Some people suggested that we should not use or support Mint because
the developer of Mint, Clem Lefebvre, has previously expressed
anti-Israeli and pro-Palestinian sentiments, for which he was widely
criticised.

This, by the sort of majestic inevitability that gave us Godwin's Law
(q.v. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin%27s_law ) let to a
discussion on the difference between Israel as a nation-state and
Israel as the notional collective identity of all Jewish people, which
became a spirited debate on the nature of religion.

Alan Pope did not approve of this and took a motion to some kind of
IRC-based Ubuntu council meeting of which I've never even heard and
rather than impose moderation on the list or anything, they just
closed the Sounder list down. I have been vocal in my criticism of him
for this - he and I have known each other for a long time - and my
comments have been highlighted as examples of the sort of messages
which are regarded as not in the Ubuntu spirit and the reason they
closed the list.

It seems to me that one cannot have a community and discussions
without occasionally having to call someone out and tell them that
they are being stupid or unreasonable. We can all be stupid and
unreasonable at times.

In time I shall probably be banned from these lists, as well.

Anyway... This is very offtopic!

The new sounder list, the Bikeshed, is free and open for all, and we
welcome anyone who would like to come and discuss Ubuntu, Linux and
anything arising therefrom.
--
Liam Proven ? Info & profile: http://www.google.com/profiles/lproven
Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com
Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419
AIM/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven ? MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? ICQ: 73187508
chris
2011-04-21 20:16:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by Liam Proven
Post by Liam Proven
Well, Sounder /was/ the place - but since it's gone now, there is a
On Wed, Apr 20, 2011 at 3:54 AM, John McCabe-Dansted
http://groups.google.com/group/bikeshed
Do please come and join us there!
I've seen many references to Sounder but never went there. What exactly was
Sounder and why was it shutdown?
Ubuntu Sounder was the place for non-support-related discussion about
Ubuntu and Linux in general.
After a recent thread expressing dissatisfaction with the forthcoming
Unity desktop GUI, I suggested that Linux Mint might be a suitable
alternative for those who did not want Unity but liked Ubuntu and
classic Gnome.
<snip>

It seemed to me that it was a quite constructive criticism of unity that
triggered the decision to close sounder.

I suspect the political discussion that followed that criticism may have
been used as an excuse.

Just a personal opinion.
ct
Post by Liam Proven
The new sounder list, the Bikeshed, is free and open for all, and we
welcome anyone who would like to come and discuss Ubuntu, Linux and
anything arising therefrom.
Liam Proven
2011-04-21 20:34:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by Alan Pope
Post by Liam Proven
Post by Liam Proven
Well, Sounder /was/ the place - but since it's gone now, there is a
On Wed, Apr 20, 2011 at 3:54 AM, John McCabe-Dansted
http://groups.google.com/group/bikeshed
Do please come and join us there!
I've seen many references to Sounder but never went there. What exactly was
Sounder and why was it shutdown?
Ubuntu Sounder was the place for non-support-related discussion about
Ubuntu and Linux in general.
After a recent thread expressing dissatisfaction with the forthcoming
Unity desktop GUI, I suggested that Linux Mint might be a suitable
alternative for those who did not want Unity but liked Ubuntu and
classic Gnome.
<snip>
It seemed to me that it was a quite constructive criticism of unity that
triggered the decision to close sounder.
I suspect the political discussion that followed that criticism may have
been used as an excuse.
Just a personal opinion.
Ah, well, you might be right there. It's an interesting thought.

Any discussion of Israel & related matters does rouse extremely strong
feelings. It's one of the prime causes of cases of Godwin's Law. I thought
it was that, but you might well be right...

- Liam P.
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chris
2011-04-21 21:50:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by Alan Pope
Post by Liam Proven
Post by Jim Byrnes
Post by Liam Proven
Well, Sounder /was/ the place - but since it's gone now, there
is a
Post by Alan Pope
Post by Liam Proven
Post by Jim Byrnes
Post by Liam Proven
On Wed, Apr 20, 2011 at 3:54 AM, John McCabe-Dansted
http://groups.google.com/group/bikeshed
Do please come and join us there!
I've seen many references to Sounder but never went there. What
exactly was
Post by Alan Pope
Post by Liam Proven
Post by Jim Byrnes
Sounder and why was it shutdown?
Ubuntu Sounder was the place for non-support-related discussion
about
Post by Alan Pope
Post by Liam Proven
Ubuntu and Linux in general.
After a recent thread expressing dissatisfaction with the
forthcoming
Post by Alan Pope
Post by Liam Proven
Unity desktop GUI, I suggested that Linux Mint might be a suitable
alternative for those who did not want Unity but liked Ubuntu and
classic Gnome.
<snip>
It seemed to me that it was a quite constructive criticism of unity
that
Post by Alan Pope
triggered the decision to close sounder.
I suspect the political discussion that followed that criticism may
have
Post by Alan Pope
been used as an excuse.
Just a personal opinion.
Ah, well, you might be right there. It's an interesting thought.
Any discussion of Israel & related matters does rouse extremely strong
feelings. It's one of the prime causes of cases of Godwin's Law. I
thought it was that, but you might well be right...
- Liam P.
I had some similar issues with Cannonical over their removal of the
wvdial packages from the cd distro's. There justification was that the
bulk of the worlds users were on broadband. Not true in NZ, nor many
third world countries.

Although in NZ most urban areas have dsl, the country areas a woefuly
provided for, as I believe is the case in parts of Aussie (NZ largest
Island); and bits of the USA.

When I questioned Cannonical about it I was told to download the meta
package. With out a means of connecting to the net. :-)

Yes...........
Mihamina Rakotomandimby
2011-04-21 22:08:57 UTC
Permalink
On Fri, 22 Apr 2011 09:50:48 +1200
I had some similar issues with Cannonical over their removal of the
wvdial packages from the cd distro's. There justification was that
the bulk of the worlds users were on broadband. Not true in NZ, nor
many third world countries.
Yep, here in Madagascar, 1/4th world, no wired Internet access.
Only choices are:
- Wimax
- GSM -> 3G (where we use wvdial)

In the future, please consider us :-)!
--
RMA.
chris
2011-04-22 04:55:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mihamina Rakotomandimby
On Fri, 22 Apr 2011 09:50:48 +1200
I had some similar issues with Cannonical over their removal of the
wvdial packages from the cd distro's. There justification was that
the bulk of the worlds users were on broadband. Not true in NZ, nor
many third world countries.
Yep, here in Madagascar, 1/4th world, no wired Internet access.
- Wimax
- GSM -> 3G (where we use wvdial)
In the future, please consider us :-)!
--
RMA.
follow this url
https://docs.google.com/View?id=ddj988ww_4gxnzrsgc&pli=1

and get your country men to follow some of the suggestions listed. If
we make enough noise who knows what could happen.
Remember Ghandi
--
Cheers the kiwi
Cybe R. Wizard
2011-04-21 22:40:36 UTC
Permalink
On Fri, 22 Apr 2011 09:50:48 +1200
Post by chris
I had some similar issues with Cannonical over their removal of the
wvdial packages from the cd distro's. There justification was that
the bulk of the worlds users were on broadband. Not true in NZ, nor
many third world countries.
Although in NZ most urban areas have dsl, the country areas a woefuly
provided for, as I believe is the case in parts of Aussie (NZ largest
Island); and bits of the USA.
When I questioned Cannonical about it I was told to download the meta
package. With out a means of connecting to the net. :-)
Truth to tell, although wvdial was removed, the ability to connect with
dial-up was not. pppconfig was and still is available. That has never
changed.

Cybe R. Wizard
--
When Windows are opened the bugs come in.
Winduhs
chris
2011-04-21 23:58:01 UTC
Permalink
On Fri, 22 Apr 2011 09:50:48 +1200
Post by chris
I had some similar issues with Cannonical over their removal of the
wvdial packages from the cd distro's. There justification was that
the bulk of the worlds users were on broadband. Not true in NZ, nor
many third world countries.
Although in NZ most urban areas have dsl, the country areas a woefuly
provided for, as I believe is the case in parts of Aussie (NZ largest
Island); and bits of the USA.
When I questioned Cannonical about it I was told to download the meta
package. With out a means of connecting to the net. :-)
Truth to tell, although wvdial was removed, the ability to connect with
dial-up was not. pppconfig was and still is available. That has never
changed.
True, but I was never able to get it to work. Spent a long time mucking
around with it.
Robert Holtzman
2011-04-22 17:58:17 UTC
Permalink
On Thu, Apr 21, 2011 at 05:40:36PM -0500, Cybe R. Wizard wrote:

.........snip........
Post by Cybe R. Wizard
Truth to tell, although wvdial was removed, the ability to connect with
dial-up was not. pppconfig was and still is available. That has never
changed.
IIRC pppconfig configures ppp but ppp uses wvdial.
--
Bob Holtzman
Key ID: 8D549279
"If you think you're getting free lunch,
check the price of the beer"
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Cybe R. Wizard
2011-04-23 05:10:22 UTC
Permalink
On Fri, 22 Apr 2011 10:58:17 -0700
Post by Robert Holtzman
.........snip........
Post by Cybe R. Wizard
Truth to tell, although wvdial was removed, the ability to connect
with dial-up was not. pppconfig was and still is available. That
has never changed.
IIRC pppconfig configures ppp but ppp uses wvdial.
According to Synaptic (OK, I'm the GUI Kid) wvdial has ppp as a
dependency but not the other way around. I do know there are two
different scripts each for connecting/disconnecting:
pon and pon.wvdial,
poff and poff.wvdial.

The wvdial ones hand off to wvdial, no surprise. Regular pon and poff
seem to use the pppd.

Cybe R. Wizard
--
Registered GNU/Linux user # 126326
Robert Holtzman
2011-04-22 05:45:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by Liam Proven
Well, Sounder /was/ the place - but since it's gone now, there is a
On Wed, Apr 20, 2011 at 3:54 AM, John McCabe-Dansted
http://groups.google.com/group/bikeshed
Do please come and join us there!
Tried to and it said I had, but when I went to sign in it claimed my p/w
was no good. This was the same password pasted from the password manager
program I use. I asked to have my p/w mailed to me. I'll be interested
to see what it is.
--
Bob Holtzman
Key ID: 8D549279
"If you think you're getting free lunch,
check the price of the beer"
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Gilles Gravier
2011-04-22 05:55:30 UTC
Permalink
Hello!
Post by Robert Holtzman
Post by Liam Proven
Well, Sounder /was/ the place - but since it's gone now, there is a
On Wed, Apr 20, 2011 at 3:54 AM, John McCabe-Dansted
http://groups.google.com/group/bikeshed
Do please come and join us there!
Tried to and it said I had, but when I went to sign in it claimed my p/w
was no good. This was the same password pasted from the password manager
program I use. I asked to have my p/w mailed to me. I'll be interested
to see what it is
That is your error, Robert. If you pasted your password, then you set it
as "********" and everybody knows it now. :)

Gilles
/me ducks
Robert Holtzman
2011-04-22 18:14:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by Gilles Gravier
Post by Robert Holtzman
Post by Liam Proven
Well, Sounder /was/ the place - but since it's gone now, there is a
On Wed, Apr 20, 2011 at 3:54 AM, John McCabe-Dansted
http://groups.google.com/group/bikeshed
Do please come and join us there!
Tried to and it said I had, but when I went to sign in it claimed my p/w
was no good. This was the same password pasted from the password manager
program I use. I asked to have my p/w mailed to me. I'll be interested
to see what it is
That is your error, Robert. If you pasted your password, then you set it
as "********" and everybody knows it now. :)
Well I wish them better luck than I had using it to log in. Just
received the reply to my p/w query.

"We searched our database but we were unable to find any usernames
associated with your email address holtzm at cox.net."

That's great. When I established the account the site said it had been
created. When I tried to re-establish it I was told it existed.

God, I love this.
--
Bob Holtzman
Key ID: 8D549279
"If you think you're getting free lunch,
check the price of the beer"
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Jordon Bedwell
2011-04-22 18:30:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by Robert Holtzman
Well I wish them better luck than I had using it to log in. Just
received the reply to my p/w query.
"We searched our database but we were unable to find any usernames
associated with your email address holtzm at cox.net."
That's great. When I established the account the site said it had been
created. When I tried to re-establish it I was told it existed.
God, I love this.
I had no problems finding your account.
chris
2011-04-21 20:05:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by Douglas Pollard
AIM/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven ? MSN:lproven at hotmail.com ? ICQ: 73187508
-- ubuntu-users mailing list ubuntu-users at lists.ubuntu.com
I am will be leaving as well but am not sure where to go. I am not
that is not like having the real power of money. Sorry about this
off topic post. There seems no place else to go with it. Doug
Some of us have moved to here,
bikeshed at googlegroups.com
--
Cheers the kiwi
Ric Moore
2011-04-22 00:01:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by Douglas Pollard
I just realised I feel like I am on Welfare and from Conical point
of view I am.
OR! The Other View is that you/we are in Gift-Debt, by standing on the
shoulders of those of great talent that provide us with this "gift",
And, since we cannot directly pay them back, being moral beings we repay
on our Gift Debt by paying it forward. Like helping out the next guy and
spreading the Gospel. Nothing wrong with that at all, and in these
extremely weird times of financial crisis, universal lack of Brotherly
Love and world upheaval, our just paying it forward is about as good as
one can hope to expect from anyone else. It does keeps the world
spinning in "greased grooves". Since Brother Mark writes about such
things, I don't think he sees you/us as on "welfare". Not if you pay it
forward.

As far as sounder goes, on the old Caldera List we yakked away on it,
but made darn sure that those who couldn't care less about this kind of
over-the-fence-yak could easily filter it out with <OT> on the subject
line. Those that enjoy longish threads that arise from some topic, when
some forgotten memory was called forth to be shared... If the <OT> rule
was/is fastidiously applied, there is the best of both worlds.

It's a thought. But, that was in the "Old Days". Ric
--
My father, Victor Moore (Vic) used to say:
"There are two Great Sins in the world...
..the Sin of Ignorance, and the Sin of Stupidity.
Only the former may be overcome." R.I.P. Dad.
Linux user# 44256
Cybe R. Wizard
2011-04-22 00:31:06 UTC
Permalink
On Thu, 21 Apr 2011 20:01:43 -0400
Post by Ric Moore
As far as sounder goes, on the old Caldera List we yakked away on it,
but made darn sure that those who couldn't care less about this kind
of over-the-fence-yak could easily filter it out with <OT> on the
subject line. Those that enjoy longish threads that arise from some
topic, when some forgotten memory was called forth to be shared... If
the <OT> rule was/is fastidiously applied, there is the best of both
worlds.
It's a thought. But, that was in the "Old Days". Ric
I believe the difference to be one of the, "new vs old," type
generation gaps. I know that most all of the younger people I am
exposed to (don't go there) would have a hard time with some of the OT
threads on Sounder (or here, for that matter), not because of content
but because the threads are TL and they DR.
("too long," and, "didn't read," for all you other oldies)

Today, conversation, if it can be so termed, is carried on through
character-limited text messaging/twitter or on sound byte-influenced
IRC venues. Even the TV and radio are all about the short sound byte,
not the in-depth news to which we of an older generation are used.

Its all about the personal attention span as evidenced everywhere in the
whole Sounder debacle.

Cybe R. Wizard
--
Sounder members, especially the most opinionated ones, are needed in
the Ubuntu community for that community to be healthy and strong.
Chris Puttick
Ric Moore
2011-04-22 00:58:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by Cybe R. Wizard
On Thu, 21 Apr 2011 20:01:43 -0400
Post by Ric Moore
As far as sounder goes, on the old Caldera List we yakked away on it,
but made darn sure that those who couldn't care less about this kind
of over-the-fence-yak could easily filter it out with <OT> on the
subject line. Those that enjoy longish threads that arise from some
topic, when some forgotten memory was called forth to be shared... If
the <OT> rule was/is fastidiously applied, there is the best of both
worlds.
It's a thought. But, that was in the "Old Days". Ric
I believe the difference to be one of the, "new vs old," type
generation gaps. I know that most all of the younger people I am
exposed to (don't go there) would have a hard time with some of the OT
threads on Sounder (or here, for that matter), not because of content
but because the threads are TL and they DR.
("too long," and, "didn't read," for all you other oldies)
Today, conversation, if it can be so termed, is carried on through
character-limited text messaging/twitter or on sound byte-influenced
IRC venues. Even the TV and radio are all about the short sound byte,
not the in-depth news to which we of an older generation are used.
Its all about the personal attention span as evidenced everywhere in the
whole Sounder debacle.
'tis a pity too. The English Language (for those of us born using it)
can be a beautiful thing. I get off on the Zen of the Linux Community
thing, like this discussion of the early days of UNIX and Digital.
That's Old School goodness to me. Those fresh to Linux need to know of
the giants on whose shoulders we all stand.

Since I'm not bilingual, it would be interesting if those that speak
fluent Spanish or German could tell us if their Linux communities are
experiencing the terse short-attention span as well. Or, is the whole
planet been sucked suffering into Twitter-mode? :) Ric
--
My father, Victor Moore (Vic) used to say:
"There are two Great Sins in the world...
..the Sin of Ignorance, and the Sin of Stupidity.
Only the former may be overcome." R.I.P. Dad.
Linux user# 44256
chris
2011-04-22 01:56:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ric Moore
Post by Cybe R. Wizard
On Thu, 21 Apr 2011 20:01:43 -0400
Post by Ric Moore
As far as sounder goes, on the old Caldera List we yakked away on it,
but made darn sure that those who couldn't care less about this kind
of over-the-fence-yak could easily filter it out with <OT> on the
subject line. Those that enjoy longish threads that arise from some
topic, when some forgotten memory was called forth to be shared... If
the <OT> rule was/is fastidiously applied, there is the best of both
worlds.
It's a thought. But, that was in the "Old Days". Ric
I believe the difference to be one of the, "new vs old," type
generation gaps. I know that most all of the younger people I am
exposed to (don't go there) would have a hard time with some of the OT
threads on Sounder (or here, for that matter), not because of content
but because the threads are TL and they DR.
("too long," and, "didn't read," for all you other oldies)
Today, conversation, if it can be so termed, is carried on through
character-limited text messaging/twitter or on sound byte-influenced
IRC venues. Even the TV and radio are all about the short sound byte,
not the in-depth news to which we of an older generation are used.
Its all about the personal attention span as evidenced everywhere in the
whole Sounder debacle.
'tis a pity too. The English Language (for those of us born using it)
can be a beautiful thing. I get off on the Zen of the Linux Community
thing, like this discussion of the early days of UNIX and Digital.
That's Old School goodness to me. Those fresh to Linux need to know of
the giants on whose shoulders we all stand.
Since I'm not bilingual, it would be interesting if those that speak
fluent Spanish or German could tell us if their Linux communities are
experiencing the terse short-attention span as well. Or, is the whole
planet been sucked suffering into Twitter-mode? :) Ric
--
"There are two Great Sins in the world...
..the Sin of Ignorance, and the Sin of Stupidity.
Only the former may be overcome." R.I.P. Dad.
Linux user# 44256
I suspect the whole planet. I have nieces/nephews etc. Their attention
span is 30 seconds, and needs pretty pictures. Sadly their general
knowledge is dismal. I once made the mistake of referring to Socrates.
well won't go there.

I have a younger friend who has a Phd, but outside his very limited
specialty is almost ignorant. But maybe I am too old and biased. Yes I
still remember with affection the Dec's
--
Cheers the kiwi
Colin Law
2011-04-22 08:03:16 UTC
Permalink
...
I have nieces/nephews etc. ?Their attention
span is 30 seconds, and needs pretty pictures. Sadly their general
knowledge is dismal.
I seem to remember my parents saying similar things about my
generation, 50 years ago. I suspect that my offspring will say
similar things about their children.

Colin
chris
2011-04-22 08:18:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by Colin Law
Post by chris
...
I have nieces/nephews etc. Their attention
span is 30 seconds, and needs pretty pictures. Sadly their general
knowledge is dismal.
I seem to remember my parents saying similar things about my
generation, 50 years ago. I suspect that my offspring will say
similar things about their children.
Colin
You could will be right.
Socrates said the same, only in ancient greek. :-)
J
2011-04-22 13:20:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by Colin Law
...
I have nieces/nephews etc. ?Their attention
span is 30 seconds, and needs pretty pictures. Sadly their general
knowledge is dismal.
I seem to remember my parents saying similar things about my
generation, 50 years ago. ?I suspect that my offspring will say
similar things about their children.
Yes, but your offspring will say so in 160 characters or less ;-)
Tom H
2011-04-21 19:00:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by Liam Proven
Post by Tom H
Post by Liam Proven
Post by chris
Post by Liam Proven
Don't you think it would be nice to move this to sounder. ?I am having
trouble getting my wheelchair over here.
We can't. The Powers that Be have just shut it down.
True, which makes me wonder about the whole Ubuntu/Canonical thing.
Fortunately as you know well, there are other distros, I am at the
moment playing with PCLinux OS, and Denbian stable. ?On my production
machine I am switching to Mint 10.04.2 for the mean time whilst I see
what happens with Canonical.
I've been looking into what Clem Lefebvre is planning for Mint 11.
Apparently, it will be based on GNOME 3, but with the traditional
panel layout - no GNOME Shell. I didn't even realise this was
possible, TBH. That certainly sounds like it will be worth a look for
those who like neither Unity nor the GNOME Shell, or whose hardware
isn't up to running them in their full composited glory.
There is also now a second Debian-based Mint, to go with LMDE, the
Linux Mint Debian Edition, which currently uses a GNOME 2-based
desktop. There is now Linux Mint Xfce 201104 as well, which like LMDE
is also based directly off Debian and not Ubuntu.
There are more options opening up for people who wish to leave Ubuntu,
Unity and GNOME 3 but keep the Debian base and the power of apt-get
and dpkg.
I'm not planning to decamp just yet myself. I'm intrigued by Unity. I
am playing with it in a VM and whereas I don't find it an obvious or
intuitive environment, I will certainly give it a try on native
hardware when it's released.
Ubuntu 11.04 has the "classic" desktop ("Ubuntu Classic") and GNOME 3
has a legacy/fallback mode so if you don't like the new interfaces,
you can choose to use the old ones. Maybe Mint'll have the
legacy/fallback mode enabled by default.
I didn't know that about GNOME 3 - typically, the snazzy promotional
website, stuffed with just-slightly-irritating videos, is scant on
actual hard information.
I did know about Unity's fallback, as I've tried it. It might be
called "Ubuntu classic" but it isn't. It retains one of the features I
most dislike about Unity - the single menu bar at the top of the
screen. I can live with this on the Mac, although I prefer the
KDE/GNOME1+2/Windows way of menus in the window itself.
But an auto-hiding menu bar is, I think, a *disastrous* idea. One that
by design partially occludes the name of the app as well is just that
tiny bit worse.
The only thing worse than auto-hiding menus is removal of the Quit
option, which is planned for a future release. I use an Android phone
which has no Quit option and I absolutely detest the "feature" - it is
a nightmare and significantly impedes performance, not to mention
making certain operations difficult or annoying.
The "no quit" think intrigued because I hadn't heard of it before.
Google yielded this:
http://design.canonical.com/2011/03/quit/

I've read the beginning and will go back to it later. I don't
understand; I would've thought that there'd be more pressing design
matters to deal with than eliminating "quit." Firefox comes to mind as
an app that needs to be restarted no matter which OS you're using.

I'd forgotten about the menu bar! I don't mind that it's detached but
the auto-hiding of the actual menus and the partial over-writing of
the application's name are a PitA. At least the auto-hiding of the
launcher can be turned off.
Joep L. Blom
2011-04-16 21:13:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by Basil Chupin
I came to the following conclusion last night - and your comments
contain some of those conclusions in one way or another.
The only people who do any 'testing' of these Linux distros, or even try
and use them, are old farts who have nothing better to do other than
waste whatever remaining time they have on this earth in trying to
appear useful for some cause - in this case pretending they have a great
big interest in trying to convert the world to use a Linux distro of
their "choice" when they perfectly well know, but still delude
themselves that this is not the case, that 99.9% of the world is not
going to stop using Windows or Apple MAC but change over to some Linux
distro.
The only interest the old farts seem to have in this whole affair is
having some sort of social life by belonging to the mail lists and where
they can parry and trust with words and put down people at the first
opportunity.
They even go around organising "Release Parties" - such as is currently
being done here in Australia - to "celebrate" the release of Natty in a
couple of weeks!
The only comments the old farts can contribute to some adverse remark
about something such as what is being talked about here is, "But its
ONLY a Beta, HA, HA, HA, and EVERYBODY knows you pay no attention to
what a Beta doesn't do! and so don't complain but help to propagate this
delusion that your "testing" is important and submit a BUG report
(woohoo! a BUG report - that magical expression, "BUG report", which
suddenly is intended to confer on you membership of the inner circle of
a special corp of Boy Scouts whose members are most likely to have an
average age of 75 years!).
How many young people have been converted to using Linux - but let's
say, Ubuntu?
Bugger all I would say.
The only people talking about Linux are old farts - not young people.
The young ones go for the latest version of Firefox and Chrome - but
even these are not available to them in a released version of a distro
because such things are not backported.
And when some young person comes along and starts to ask questions, what
do the old farts say to him/her? "Don't expect us to do your
homework/assignment for you! Go and google for the information you free
loader!".
About 4 years ago in another distro I suggested to the 'boss' of the
project to give a copy of the distro to all the kids in his street and
ask them to tear the system apart and find all the faults in it so that
the faults can be rectified before it is finally released. Yeah,
right..... The only people still doing any testing are old
farts......and young kids don't get to know Linux.
And speaking of which..... and I will not make any further
comment/observation on this matter.... some parts of Natty crashed on me
today. When the crashes occurred I was asked if I want to submit a
report to help the developers solve the crashes - I answered YES and
reports were generated; but then I was asked to provide my name, e-mail
address, a password for some account, the size of my shoes, religious
inclinations, my inside leg measurement - which I refused to do and so
the developers got zilch to help them solve the crashes. If the system
generates the damn crash report why the heck should I provide all such
unnecessary details? Is someone afraid that I could waste my time coming
up with a bogus report just to get my jollies off?
Anyway, complaining or pointing out some problems is not what using an
operating system is about. I want to use it to do things and not spend
time reporting on hassles. So, from now on just reading what is written
by people and keeping up with the people I got to know here.
When you think about it, many, many people have spent time and effort in
coding, looking for hassles, reporting the hassles only to find now that
whatever they have been doing for a long time has been for nought and
now they - if they consider that there is no other life for them outside
of reporting 'bugs' - have to start all over again because Unity is
here! "Sorry, but stuff this for a joke", is what I expect some people
to conclude.
BC
Eh, Basil,
Your (OT) rant is firstly completely useless and secondly grossly in
error. Or didn't you know that the MacOS is Linux (albeit BSD) with a
not-so-intelligent overlay.
I agree completely with Giles and your rant tells us much about you.
Joep
MR ZenWiz
2011-04-17 17:01:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by Joep L. Blom
Eh, Basil,
Your (OT) rant is firstly completely useless and secondly grossly in error.
Or didn't you know that the MacOS is Linux (albeit BSD) with a
not-so-intelligent overlay.
Oh? Funny, I thought BSD (Berkeley Systems Development) was one of
the two "original" brands of UNIX, an offshoot from Ken Thompson and
Dennis Ritchie's work in Bell Labs, developed as a free alternative to
AT&T UNIX.. IIRC, BSD predates Linux by a couple of decades....

No comment (so far) on the rest of this thread.
Gilles Gravier
2011-04-17 17:21:39 UTC
Permalink
Hi!
Post by MR ZenWiz
Post by Joep L. Blom
Eh, Basil,
Your (OT) rant is firstly completely useless and secondly grossly in error.
Or didn't you know that the MacOS is Linux (albeit BSD) with a
not-so-intelligent overlay.
Oh? Funny, I thought BSD (Berkeley Systems Development) was one of
the two "original" brands of UNIX, an offshoot from Ken Thompson and
Dennis Ritchie's work in Bell Labs, developed as a free alternative to
AT&T UNIX.. IIRC, BSD predates Linux by a couple of decades....
It is. Just the statement "MacOS is Linux" is incorrect. MacOS is Unix
is closer... it's based on FreeBSD, but with a lot of proprietary add-ons...
Post by MR ZenWiz
No comment (so far) on the rest of this thread
:)

Gilles.
Steven Susbauer
2011-04-18 23:46:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by Gilles Gravier
Hi!
Post by MR ZenWiz
Post by Joep L. Blom
Eh, Basil,
Your (OT) rant is firstly completely useless and secondly grossly in error.
Or didn't you know that the MacOS is Linux (albeit BSD) with a
not-so-intelligent overlay.
Oh? Funny, I thought BSD (Berkeley Systems Development) was one of
the two "original" brands of UNIX, an offshoot from Ken Thompson and
Dennis Ritchie's work in Bell Labs, developed as a free alternative to
AT&T UNIX.. IIRC, BSD predates Linux by a couple of decades....
It is. Just the statement "MacOS is Linux" is incorrect. MacOS is Unix
is closer... it's based on FreeBSD, but with a lot of proprietary add-ons...
It's not only closer; Apple has paid the money for the licensing,
therefore OS X is Unix certified and can be called (legally) UNIX. BSD
cannot do that, but only because of the dollar signs.

One may call the gui not-so-intelligent but I find it telling that both
gnome, Ubuntu/Unity, KDE, and Windows are on some kind of convergence
crusade. At this point few of them really can be considered
"intelligent" and their differences are fewer than similarities. They're
all moving towards a similar look.

What I find (more) interesting about OS X when looking at the modern
plans of moving to Wayland, is that NeXT/Apple essentially did a similar
move way back in the 80s and 90s, with Display Postscript and whatever
Apple's system is called now. X11 is an application just like any other,
and it runs on top of an actual nice graphical system.

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Ric Moore
2011-04-17 18:10:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by Joep L. Blom
Eh, Basil,
Your (OT) rant is firstly completely useless and secondly grossly in
error. Or didn't you know that the MacOS is Linux (albeit BSD) with a
not-so-intelligent overlay.
I agree completely with Giles and your rant tells us much about you.
Would you expect less from a person that lives his life upside down, in
the "Land-Down-Under" from us? <chuckles> Ric
--
My father, Victor Moore (Vic) used to say:
"There are two Great Sins in the world...
..the Sin of Ignorance, and the Sin of Stupidity.
Only the former may be overcome." R.I.P. Dad.
Linux user# 44256
chris
2011-04-17 20:22:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ric Moore
Post by Joep L. Blom
Eh, Basil,
Your (OT) rant is firstly completely useless and secondly grossly in
error. Or didn't you know that the MacOS is Linux (albeit BSD) with a
not-so-intelligent overlay.
I agree completely with Giles and your rant tells us much about you.
Would you expect less from a person that lives his life upside down, in
the "Land-Down-Under" from us? <chuckles> Ric
or sideways to us Kiwis which are proper and upright to the rest of you
lot. :-)
Tom H
2011-04-17 19:42:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by Joep L. Blom
Your (OT) rant is firstly completely useless and secondly grossly in error.
Or didn't you know that the MacOS is Linux (albeit BSD) with a
not-so-intelligent overlay.
If you're going to correct someone, *please* get your facts right!

OS X's based on FreeBSD, which most certainly isn't Linux.

OS X's "overlay" is being imitated by both Canonical and GNOME so it
can't be *that* unintelligent...
Ric Moore
2011-04-17 20:10:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tom H
Post by Joep L. Blom
Your (OT) rant is firstly completely useless and secondly grossly in error.
Or didn't you know that the MacOS is Linux (albeit BSD) with a
not-so-intelligent overlay.
If you're going to correct someone, *please* get your facts right!
OS X's based on FreeBSD, which most certainly isn't Linux.
It is a very close cousin. So close, that you wouldn't marry her. :)
Post by Tom H
OS X's "overlay" is being imitated by both Canonical and GNOME so it
can't be *that* unintelligent...
Who knows? Maybe Jobs can be out-Jobs-ed, as in doing it better than
they do? The original target was to be better than Win95. We have, for
the most part, gotten there. (IMHO) Next, OS X. It's not a bad goal to
set. I hope it succeeds, myself. The uphill battle will be not having
the home-field advantage of all the proprietary drivers that both
Windows and Mac enjoys, for the various gadgets that Ubuntu will be
expected to support. That is the real uphill battle. Ric
--
My father, Victor Moore (Vic) used to say:
"There are two Great Sins in the world...
..the Sin of Ignorance, and the Sin of Stupidity.
Only the former may be overcome." R.I.P. Dad.
Linux user# 44256
Tom H
2011-04-19 22:02:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ric Moore
Post by Tom H
Post by Joep L. Blom
Your (OT) rant is firstly completely useless and secondly grossly in error.
Or didn't you know that the MacOS is Linux (albeit BSD) with a
not-so-intelligent overlay.
OS X's "overlay" is being imitated by both Canonical and GNOME so it
can't be *that* unintelligent...
Who knows? Maybe Jobs can be out-Jobs-ed, as in doing it better than
they do? The original target was to be better than Win95. We have, for
the most part, gotten there. (IMHO) Next, OS X. It's not a bad goal to
set.
I hope that Win95 was GNOME's target a LONG time ago! :)
Post by Ric Moore
From my narrow perspective (re-sizing the Unity launcher and
re-ordering the icons on that launcher), Unity's a failure and I won't
be using it. Otherwise, it's looking pretty good. I have issues with
GNOME 3 (and its developers' attitude) too so I won't use GNOME any
more. Basically, both Unity and GNOME 3 are out for me because of the
latter (unless Unity develops the features that I want and it can be
used as a KDE "shell" some time in the future). I'm sure that both
sets of developers'll keep on pushing the envelope and publish good
updates and upgrades. Imitating OS X's best bits is a good idea but OS
X has an insurmountable advantage, hardware. OS X only has to support
Apple's limited hardware. Compared to GNOME, OS X's development's more
user-centric (in spite of it being closed) and will therefore always
be more successful (I can't figure out whether Canonical's is or
isn't, and to what extent).
Joep L. Blom
2011-04-17 21:41:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tom H
Post by Joep L. Blom
Your (OT) rant is firstly completely useless and secondly grossly in error.
Or didn't you know that the MacOS is Linux (albeit BSD) with a
not-so-intelligent overlay.
If you're going to correct someone, *please* get your facts right!
OS X's based on FreeBSD, which most certainly isn't Linux.
OS X's "overlay" is being imitated by both Canonical and GNOME so it
can't be *that* unintelligent...
Tom (e.a.),
First, Linux was a slip of the pen, (typed and not reread) and to be
nitpicking: FreeBSD is not BSD but a much later incarnation of
it.Moreover, I have always had the impression that Unix is coined by
Kernigan and Ritchy where Ken Thomson was the third man. Don't forget:C
was never intended to be a real computer language, it was only a bag of
subroutines to program the operating system Unix.
I got my first incarnation of Unix from K & R in 1979 on a few tapes
with a huge set of paper (documentation) for the old DEC PDP-11,
(talking about real old systems) and was my successor for the PDP-8
which I bought it in 1969 working in a research institution.
And I humbly disagree as copying is not proof that something is good!
Eye candy for one is an eye sore for another and the typical Mac GUI was
only meant to be different from the MS GUI and didn't have user
friendliness in mind. The only reason to plagiarize the Mac GUI is the
thought that it will attract people that like the Mac but don't want the
closed Apple environment.
Joep
Tom H
2011-04-20 00:58:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by Joep L. Blom
On Sat, Apr 16, 2011 at 5:13 PM, Joep L. Blom<jlblom at neuroweave.nl>
Post by Joep L. Blom
Your (OT) rant is firstly completely useless and secondly grossly in error.
Or didn't you know that the MacOS is Linux (albeit BSD) with a
not-so-intelligent overlay.
If you're going to correct someone, *please* get your facts right!
OS X's based on FreeBSD, which most certainly isn't Linux.
OS X's "overlay" is being imitated by both Canonical and GNOME so it
can't be *that* unintelligent...
First, Linux was a slip of the pen, (typed and not reread) and to be
nitpicking: FreeBSD is not BSD but a much later incarnation of it.Moreover,
I have always had the impression that Unix is coined by Kernigan and Ritchy
where Ken Thomson was the third man. Don't forget:C was never intended to be
a real computer language, it was only a bag of subroutines to program the
operating system Unix.
I got my first incarnation of Unix from K & R in 1979 on a few tapes with a
huge set of paper (documentation) for the old DEC PDP-11, (talking about
real old systems) and was my successor for the PDP-8 which I bought it in
1969 working in a research institution.
I don't follow but it doesn't matter...
Post by Joep L. Blom
And I humbly disagree as copying is not proof that something is good! Eye
candy for one is an eye sore for another and the typical Mac GUI was only
meant to be different from the MS GUI and didn't have user friendliness in
mind. The only reason to plagiarize the Mac GUI is the thought that it will
attract people that like the Mac but don't want the closed Apple
environment.
We can't all agree...

Copying is a proof that something's successful. I generally advise
traders and the like at work to buy a Mac when they ask my advice and
they love it - every one of them. We're talking about people who've
been using Windows for years at work and at home.There's less eye
candy than Windows or KDE but it very user-friendly.
Joep L. Blom
2011-04-20 10:53:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tom H
Post by Joep L. Blom
On Sat, Apr 16, 2011 at 5:13 PM, Joep L. Blom<jlblom at neuroweave.nl>
Post by Joep L. Blom
Your (OT) rant is firstly completely useless and secondly grossly in error.
Or didn't you know that the MacOS is Linux (albeit BSD) with a
not-so-intelligent overlay.
If you're going to correct someone, *please* get your facts right!
OS X's based on FreeBSD, which most certainly isn't Linux.
OS X's "overlay" is being imitated by both Canonical and GNOME so it
can't be *that* unintelligent...
First, Linux was a slip of the pen, (typed and not reread) and to be
nitpicking: FreeBSD is not BSD but a much later incarnation of it.Moreover,
I have always had the impression that Unix is coined by Kernigan and Ritchy
where Ken Thomson was the third man. Don't forget:C was never intended to be
a real computer language, it was only a bag of subroutines to program the
operating system Unix.
I got my first incarnation of Unix from K& R in 1979 on a few tapes with a
huge set of paper (documentation) for the old DEC PDP-11, (talking about
real old systems) and was my successor for the PDP-8 which I bought it in
1969 working in a research institution.
I don't follow but it doesn't matter...
What is it you don't follow??
The first incarnation of Unix was written for the PDP-11 from DEC. I
mentioned that I acquired that machine after I had had experience with
another machine of DEC, the PDP8 which was not 16-bit but 12-bit (as the
PDP-9 and PDP-10 were). The PDP-11 was the first machine programmed in
hexadecimal (instead of octal which were the other machines). Unix was
the first general 16-bit OS and incorporated several principles with
respect to security that still forms the base of ala UNIX lookalikes.
Post by Tom H
Post by Joep L. Blom
And I humbly disagree as copying is not proof that something is good! Eye
candy for one is an eye sore for another and the typical Mac GUI was only
meant to be different from the MS GUI and didn't have user friendliness in
mind. The only reason to plagiarize the Mac GUI is the thought that it will
attract people that like the Mac but don't want the closed Apple
environment.
We can't all agree...
Copying is a proof that something's successful. I generally advise
traders and the like at work to buy a Mac when they ask my advice and
they love it - every one of them. We're talking about people who've
been using Windows for years at work and at home.There's less eye
candy than Windows or KDE but it very user-friendly.
I still disagree somewhat as copying the MAC tells only half. The fact
that the look-and-feel of the MAC is appreciated by many only shows that
people tend to be easy-going and accept even illogical things in the UI.
The other half is that the MAC look-and-feel is made only for the MAC
hardware and this is not different from the way Microsoft forces people.
That is my main objection against the Apple way. Therefore if you copy
the MAC way, you enhance proprietary 'eye-candy' and that's in my eyes
the wrong signal to users.
I agree of course that it is purely a question of taste. But it is just
as important to have a free choice. In Linux (Ubuntu) you have a choice
of many different UI (Gnome, Unity. XFSM, KDE, etc.). With the MAC and
Microsoft you have no choice.
I think everybody has to make his own choice for proprietary software or
Open Source, standard hardware or proprietary hardware and last - but
not least - the budget he/she want to spend.
Joep
scott
2011-04-20 21:47:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by Joep L. Blom
On Sun, Apr 17, 2011 at 5:41 PM, Joep L. Blom<jlblom at neuroweave.nl>
Post by Joep L. Blom
On Sat, Apr 16, 2011 at 5:13 PM, Joep L. Blom<jlblom at neuroweave.nl>
Post by Joep L. Blom
Your (OT) rant is firstly completely useless and secondly grossly in error.
Or didn't you know that the MacOS is Linux (albeit BSD) with a
not-so-intelligent overlay.
If you're going to correct someone, *please* get your facts right!
OS X's based on FreeBSD, which most certainly isn't Linux.
OS X's "overlay" is being imitated by both Canonical and GNOME so it
can't be *that* unintelligent...
First, Linux was a slip of the pen, (typed and not reread) and to be
nitpicking: FreeBSD is not BSD but a much later incarnation of it.Moreover,
I have always had the impression that Unix is coined by Kernigan and Ritchy
where Ken Thomson was the third man. Don't forget:C was never intended to be
a real computer language, it was only a bag of subroutines to program the
operating system Unix.
I got my first incarnation of Unix from K& R in 1979 on a few tapes with a
huge set of paper (documentation) for the old DEC PDP-11, (talking about
real old systems) and was my successor for the PDP-8 which I bought it in
1969 working in a research institution.
I don't follow but it doesn't matter...
What is it you don't follow??
The first incarnation of Unix was written for the PDP-11 from DEC. I
mentioned that I acquired that machine after I had had experience with
another machine of DEC, the PDP8 which was not 16-bit but 12-bit (as
the PDP-9 and PDP-10 were). The PDP-11 was the first machine
programmed in hexadecimal (instead of octal which were the other
machines). Unix was the first general 16-bit OS and incorporated
several principles with respect to security that still forms the base
of ala UNIX lookalikes.
Post by Joep L. Blom
And I humbly disagree as copying is not proof that something is good! Eye
candy for one is an eye sore for another and the typical Mac GUI was only
meant to be different from the MS GUI and didn't have user
friendliness in
mind. The only reason to plagiarize the Mac GUI is the thought that it will
attract people that like the Mac but don't want the closed Apple
environment.
We can't all agree...
Copying is a proof that something's successful. I generally advise
traders and the like at work to buy a Mac when they ask my advice and
they love it - every one of them. We're talking about people who've
been using Windows for years at work and at home.There's less eye
candy than Windows or KDE but it very user-friendly.
I still disagree somewhat as copying the MAC tells only half. The fact
that the look-and-feel of the MAC is appreciated by many only shows
that people tend to be easy-going and accept even illogical things in
the UI. The other half is that the MAC look-and-feel is made only for
the MAC hardware and this is not different from the way Microsoft
forces people. That is my main objection against the Apple way.
Therefore if you copy the MAC way, you enhance proprietary 'eye-candy'
and that's in my eyes the wrong signal to users.
I agree of course that it is purely a question of taste. But it is
just as important to have a free choice. In Linux (Ubuntu) you have a
choice of many different UI (Gnome, Unity. XFSM, KDE, etc.). With the
MAC and Microsoft you have no choice.
I think everybody has to make his own choice for proprietary software
or Open Source, standard hardware or proprietary hardware and last -
but not least - the budget he/she want to spend.
Joep
From a LUG group:
"Real programmers don't document.
If it was hard to write,
it should be hard to use and understand.
- is this the current Canonical motto?"
Tom H
2011-04-20 22:54:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by Joep L. Blom
On Sun, Apr 17, 2011 at 5:41 PM, Joep L. Blom<jlblom at neuroweave.nl>
Post by Joep L. Blom
On Sat, Apr 16, 2011 at 5:13 PM, Joep L. Blom<jlblom at neuroweave.nl>
Post by Joep L. Blom
Your (OT) rant is firstly completely useless and secondly grossly in error.
Or didn't you know that the MacOS is Linux (albeit BSD) with a
not-so-intelligent overlay.
If you're going to correct someone, *please* get your facts right!
OS X's based on FreeBSD, which most certainly isn't Linux.
OS X's "overlay" is being imitated by both Canonical and GNOME so it
can't be *that* unintelligent...
First, Linux was a slip of the pen, (typed and not reread) and to be
nitpicking: FreeBSD is not BSD but a much later incarnation of it.Moreover,
I have always had the impression that Unix is coined by Kernigan and Ritchy
where Ken Thomson was the third man. Don't forget:C was never intended to be
a real computer language, it was only a bag of subroutines to program the
operating system Unix.
I got my first incarnation of Unix from K& ?R in 1979 on a few tapes with
a
huge set of paper (documentation) for the old DEC PDP-11, (talking about
real old systems) and was my successor for the PDP-8 which I bought it in
1969 working in a research institution.
I don't follow but it doesn't matter...
What is it you don't follow??
The first incarnation of Unix was written for the PDP-11 from DEC. I
mentioned that I acquired that machine after I had had experience with
another machine of DEC, the PDP8 which was not 16-bit but 12-bit (as the
PDP-9 and PDP-10 were). The PDP-11 was the first machine programmed in
hexadecimal (instead of octal which were the other machines). Unix was the
first general 16-bit OS and incorporated several principles with respect to
security that still forms the base of ala UNIX lookalikes.
I didn't follow the purpose of the nix history. Nothing more.
Smoot Carl-Mitchell
2011-04-20 23:40:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tom H
Post by Joep L. Blom
What is it you don't follow??
The first incarnation of Unix was written for the PDP-11 from DEC. I
mentioned that I acquired that machine after I had had experience with
another machine of DEC, the PDP8 which was not 16-bit but 12-bit (as the
PDP-9 and PDP-10 were). The PDP-11 was the first machine programmed in
hexadecimal (instead of octal which were the other machines). Unix was the
first general 16-bit OS and incorporated several principles with respect to
security that still forms the base of ala UNIX lookalikes.
I didn't follow the purpose of the nix history. Nothing more.
A quick correction - the first Unix was written for the PDP-7 in 1969 -
not the PDP-11 which did not even exist in 1969. It was called Unics
which was a pun on Multics. In 1971 the 1st Edition Unix was running on
a PDP-11/20. This system was the immediate successor to Unics.
--
Smoot Carl-Mitchell
System/Network Architect
voice: +1 480 922-7313
cell: +1 602 421-9005
smoot at tic.com
NoOp
2011-04-21 01:26:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by Smoot Carl-Mitchell
Post by Tom H
Post by Joep L. Blom
What is it you don't follow??
The first incarnation of Unix was written for the PDP-11 from DEC. I
mentioned that I acquired that machine after I had had experience with
another machine of DEC, the PDP8 which was not 16-bit but 12-bit (as the
PDP-9 and PDP-10 were). The PDP-11 was the first machine programmed in
hexadecimal (instead of octal which were the other machines). Unix was the
first general 16-bit OS and incorporated several principles with respect to
security that still forms the base of ala UNIX lookalikes.
I didn't follow the purpose of the nix history. Nothing more.
A quick correction - the first Unix was written for the PDP-7 in 1969 -
not the PDP-11 which did not even exist in 1969. It was called Unics
which was a pun on Multics. In 1971 the 1st Edition Unix was running on
a PDP-11/20. This system was the immediate successor to Unics.
Some folks got their PDP-11's from:
http://www.computermuseum.li/Testpage/Heathkit-DEC-H11.htm
http://heathkit.garlanger.com/hardware/systems/H11/
Loading Image...

Never could afford one myself, so I bought the H8 instead.

P.S.> Sounder's dead & this thread is already OT, so I reckon I'll add
my 2 cents.
Joep L. Blom
2011-04-21 09:46:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by Smoot Carl-Mitchell
Post by Tom H
Post by Joep L. Blom
What is it you don't follow??
The first incarnation of Unix was written for the PDP-11 from DEC. I
mentioned that I acquired that machine after I had had experience with
another machine of DEC, the PDP8 which was not 16-bit but 12-bit (as the
PDP-9 and PDP-10 were). The PDP-11 was the first machine programmed in
hexadecimal (instead of octal which were the other machines). Unix was the
first general 16-bit OS and incorporated several principles with respect to
security that still forms the base of ala UNIX lookalikes.
I didn't follow the purpose of the nix history. Nothing more.
A quick correction - the first Unix was written for the PDP-7 in 1969 -
not the PDP-11 which did not even exist in 1969. It was called Unics
which was a pun on Multics. In 1971 the 1st Edition Unix was running on
a PDP-11/20. This system was the immediate successor to Unics.
Smoot,
I stand corrected! Sometimes I get my dates mixed up, But if I remember
correctly the PDP-11 came in the market in, I thought, October 1971 as a
direct answer of Ken Olson to the
Joep L. Blom
2011-04-21 09:56:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by Smoot Carl-Mitchell
Post by Tom H
Post by Joep L. Blom
What is it you don't follow??
The first incarnation of Unix was written for the PDP-11 from DEC. I
mentioned that I acquired that machine after I had had experience with
another machine of DEC, the PDP8 which was not 16-bit but 12-bit (as the
PDP-9 and PDP-10 were). The PDP-11 was the first machine programmed in
hexadecimal (instead of octal which were the other machines). Unix was the
first general 16-bit OS and incorporated several principles with respect to
security that still forms the base of ala UNIX lookalikes.
I didn't follow the purpose of the nix history. Nothing more.
A quick correction - the first Unix was written for the PDP-7 in 1969 -
not the PDP-11 which did not even exist in 1969. It was called Unics
which was a pun on Multics. In 1971 the 1st Edition Unix was running on
a PDP-11/20. This system was the immediate successor to Unics.
Smoot,
I stand corrected! Sometimes I get my dates mixed up, But if I remember
correctly the PDP-11 came in the market in, I thought, October 1971 as a
direct answer of Ken Olson to the
Sorry, I pushed the sent button too quickly.
I found that the first PDP-11 was even from 1970 but U can't find
anymore the name of the system developed by a group of technicians which
had developed the forerunner of the PDP-11 in 1969 but were pissed off
as Ken Olson didn't want to put it in the market and therefore went
away, started a new company and put this 16-bit machine in the market,
Joep L. Blom
2011-04-21 10:04:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by Joep L. Blom
Post by Smoot Carl-Mitchell
On Wed, Apr 20, 2011 at 6:53 AM, Joep L. Blom<jlblom at neuroweave.nl>
Post by Joep L. Blom
What is it you don't follow??
The first incarnation of Unix was written for the PDP-11 from DEC. I
mentioned that I acquired that machine after I had had experience with
another machine of DEC, the PDP8 which was not 16-bit but 12-bit (as the
PDP-9 and PDP-10 were). The PDP-11 was the first machine programmed in
hexadecimal (instead of octal which were the other machines). Unix was the
first general 16-bit OS and incorporated several principles with respect to
security that still forms the base of ala UNIX lookalikes.
I didn't follow the purpose of the nix history. Nothing more.
A quick correction - the first Unix was written for the PDP-7 in 1969 -
not the PDP-11 which did not even exist in 1969. It was called Unics
which was a pun on Multics. In 1971 the 1st Edition Unix was running on
a PDP-11/20. This system was the immediate successor to Unics.
Smoot,
I stand corrected! Sometimes I get my dates mixed up, But if I remember
correctly the PDP-11 came in the market in, I thought, October 1971 as a
direct answer of Ken Olson to the
Sorry, I pushed the sent button too quickly.
I found that the first PDP-11 was even from 1970 but I can't find
any more the name of the system developed by a group of technicians which
had developed the forerunner of the PDP-11 in 1968/1969 but were pissed off
as Ken Olson didn't want to put it in the market and therefore went
away, started a new company and put this 16-bit machine in the market,
I'm sorry!! for the second time instead of get mail I pushed send!! My
apologies.
The story is then that Olson was so pissed off that he put the PDP-11
within 9 months in the market and when you opened the 2 boxes you didn't
find much difference.
I assume other computer veterans on this list can give better details on
this.
Any way on this site > http://gunkies.org/wiki/PDP-11
the PDP11-20 is said to be set into the market in 1970 and ran several
OS. Unix (DEC name: Ultrix) was one of them.
Joep
Smoot Carl-Mitchell
2011-04-21 15:18:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by Joep L. Blom
The story is then that Olson was so pissed off that he put the PDP-11
within 9 months in the market and when you opened the 2 boxes you didn't
find much difference.
I assume other computer veterans on this list can give better details on
this.
Any way on this site > http://gunkies.org/wiki/PDP-11
the PDP11-20 is said to be set into the market in 1970 and ran several
OS. Unix (DEC name: Ultrix) was one of them.
Ultrix did not appear until after the AT&T breakup in the early 80s.
Ultrix was a derivative of the BSD Unix work and ran on the VAX
hardware. I think you could get a PDP-11 version, but I am not sure
about that. In the 70s Unix was put out under various research
"Editions". The last one from AT&T before the commercial System 3 was
Edition 7. I still have a paper manual for Edition 7 lying around the
house somewhere. Remarkably, the basic OS API and filesystem
permissions and structure is very similar to any modern Unix or Linux
system. Any competent sysadmin or programmer familiar with Linux would
feel right at home on Edition 7.
--
Smoot Carl-Mitchell
System/Network Architect
voice: +1 480 922-7313
cell: +1 602 421-9005
smoot at tic.com
Mike McGinn
2011-04-21 15:33:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by Smoot Carl-Mitchell
Post by Joep L. Blom
The story is then that Olson was so pissed off that he put the PDP-11
within 9 months in the market and when you opened the 2 boxes you didn't
find much difference.
I assume other computer veterans on this list can give better details on
this.
Any way on this site > http://gunkies.org/wiki/PDP-11
the PDP11-20 is said to be set into the market in 1970 and ran several
OS. Unix (DEC name: Ultrix) was one of them.
Ultrix did not appear until after the AT&T breakup in the early 80s.
Ultrix was a derivative of the BSD Unix work and ran on the VAX
hardware. I think you could get a PDP-11 version, but I am not sure
about that. In the 70s Unix was put out under various research
"Editions". The last one from AT&T before the commercial System 3 was
Edition 7. I still have a paper manual for Edition 7 lying around the
house somewhere. Remarkably, the basic OS API and filesystem
permissions and structure is very similar to any modern Unix or Linux
system. Any competent sysadmin or programmer familiar with Linux would
feel right at home on Edition 7.
My first exposure to Ultrix was on the Alpha hardware. The later changed the
name to "Digital Unix". It was not a bad system to develop on. Most of the
places that I knew of with VAXes ran VMS, including the big physics labs.
--
Mike McGinn FACOCM
You won't look forward to the trip!
No electrons were harmed in sending this message.
** Registered Linux User 377849
Liam Proven
2011-04-21 16:08:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mike McGinn
Post by Smoot Carl-Mitchell
Post by Joep L. Blom
The story is then that Olson was so pissed off that he put the PDP-11
within 9 months in the market and when you opened the 2 boxes you didn't
find much difference.
I assume other computer veterans on this list can give better details on
this.
Any way on this site > http://gunkies.org/wiki/PDP-11
the PDP11-20 is said to be set into the market in 1970 and ran several
OS. Unix (DEC name: Ultrix) was one of them.
Ultrix did not appear until after the AT&T breakup in the early 80s.
Ultrix was a derivative of the BSD Unix work and ran on the VAX
hardware. I think you could get a PDP-11 version, but I am not sure
about that. ?In the 70s Unix was put out under various research
"Editions". ?The last one from AT&T before the commercial System 3 was
Edition 7. ?I still have a paper manual for Edition 7 lying around the
house somewhere. ?Remarkably, the basic OS API and filesystem
permissions and structure is very similar to any modern Unix or Linux
system. ?Any competent sysadmin or programmer familiar with Linux would
feel right at home on Edition 7.
My first exposure to Ultrix was on the Alpha hardware. The later changed the
name to "Digital Unix". It was not a bad system to develop on. Most of the
places that I knew of with VAXes ran VMS, including the big physics labs.
I think your memories are a bit confused.

Ultrix never ran on Alpha. Ultrix ran only on VAXes, VAXstations and
DEC's MIPS-powered DECstations.

The Unix for Alpha was originally called OSF/1. Version 3.1 was
renamed Digital UNIX. Version 4 was renamed again, sadly, to the
horrible, twee "Tru64 UNIX."

Released versions only ever ran on Alpha. It was developed on MIPS but
that version was never released, and after Compaw bought DEC and then
HP bought Compaq, Tru64 was ported to Itanium, but again, never
released; HP simply killed the product and laid off the developers.

This is why proprietary Unix was a bad thing, kids. Too much infighting.
--
Liam Proven ? Info & profile: http://www.google.com/profiles/lproven
Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com
Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419
AIM/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven ? MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? ICQ: 73187508
Smoot Carl-Mitchell
2011-04-21 16:40:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by Liam Proven
Released versions only ever ran on Alpha. It was developed on MIPS but
that version was never released, and after Compaw bought DEC and then
HP bought Compaq, Tru64 was ported to Itanium, but again, never
released; HP simply killed the product and laid off the developers.
Sadly, true. I used Tru64 clustering which was the best Unix clustering
solution I have ever seen to this day. It was a beautifully engineered
single image system. You could manage the entire cluster, regardless of
which node your process ran on. All the OS common system information
was shared across the cluster. Of course this required SAN or at least
shared bus storage. Much of the engineering was ported from VAX
Clustering. HP killed it in favor of Veritas clustering for "marketing"
reasons.
--
Smoot Carl-Mitchell
System/Network Architect
voice: +1 480 922-7313
cell: +1 602 421-9005
smoot at tic.com
Jared Greenwald
2011-04-21 16:57:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by Liam Proven
Post by Mike McGinn
Post by Smoot Carl-Mitchell
Post by Joep L. Blom
The story is then that Olson was so pissed off that he put the PDP-11
within 9 months in the market and when you opened the 2 boxes you didn't
find much difference.
I assume other computer veterans on this list can give better details on
this.
Any way on this site > http://gunkies.org/wiki/PDP-11
the PDP11-20 is said to be set into the market in 1970 and ran several
OS. Unix (DEC name: Ultrix) was one of them.
Ultrix did not appear until after the AT&T breakup in the early 80s.
Ultrix was a derivative of the BSD Unix work and ran on the VAX
hardware. I think you could get a PDP-11 version, but I am not sure
about that. ?In the 70s Unix was put out under various research
"Editions". ?The last one from AT&T before the commercial System 3 was
Edition 7. ?I still have a paper manual for Edition 7 lying around the
house somewhere. ?Remarkably, the basic OS API and filesystem
permissions and structure is very similar to any modern Unix or Linux
system. ?Any competent sysadmin or programmer familiar with Linux would
feel right at home on Edition 7.
My first exposure to Ultrix was on the Alpha hardware. The later changed the
name to "Digital Unix". It was not a bad system to develop on. Most of the
places that I knew of with VAXes ran VMS, including the big physics labs.
I think your memories are a bit confused.
Ultrix never ran on Alpha. Ultrix ran only on VAXes, VAXstations and
DEC's MIPS-powered DECstations.
The Unix for Alpha was originally called OSF/1. Version 3.1 was
renamed Digital UNIX. Version 4 was renamed again, sadly, to the
horrible, twee "Tru64 UNIX."
Released versions only ever ran on Alpha. It was developed on MIPS but
that version was never released, and after Compaw bought DEC and then
HP bought Compaq, Tru64 was ported to Itanium, but again, never
released; HP simply killed the product and laid off the developers.
This is why proprietary Unix was a bad thing, kids. Too much infighting.
The only thing that HP wanted to port from Tru64 was the clustering
product - TruClusters. I could go into a long story as to why that
failed, but it wasn't for technical reasons which only illustrates
your point.
Liam Proven
2011-04-21 17:22:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jared Greenwald
Post by Liam Proven
Post by Mike McGinn
Post by Smoot Carl-Mitchell
Post by Joep L. Blom
The story is then that Olson was so pissed off that he put the PDP-11
within 9 months in the market and when you opened the 2 boxes you didn't
find much difference.
I assume other computer veterans on this list can give better details on
this.
Any way on this site > http://gunkies.org/wiki/PDP-11
the PDP11-20 is said to be set into the market in 1970 and ran several
OS. Unix (DEC name: Ultrix) was one of them.
Ultrix did not appear until after the AT&T breakup in the early 80s.
Ultrix was a derivative of the BSD Unix work and ran on the VAX
hardware. I think you could get a PDP-11 version, but I am not sure
about that. ?In the 70s Unix was put out under various research
"Editions". ?The last one from AT&T before the commercial System 3 was
Edition 7. ?I still have a paper manual for Edition 7 lying around the
house somewhere. ?Remarkably, the basic OS API and filesystem
permissions and structure is very similar to any modern Unix or Linux
system. ?Any competent sysadmin or programmer familiar with Linux would
feel right at home on Edition 7.
My first exposure to Ultrix was on the Alpha hardware. The later changed the
name to "Digital Unix". It was not a bad system to develop on. Most of the
places that I knew of with VAXes ran VMS, including the big physics labs.
I think your memories are a bit confused.
Ultrix never ran on Alpha. Ultrix ran only on VAXes, VAXstations and
DEC's MIPS-powered DECstations.
The Unix for Alpha was originally called OSF/1. Version 3.1 was
renamed Digital UNIX. Version 4 was renamed again, sadly, to the
horrible, twee "Tru64 UNIX."
Released versions only ever ran on Alpha. It was developed on MIPS but
that version was never released, and after Compaw bought DEC and then
HP bought Compaq, Tru64 was ported to Itanium, but again, never
released; HP simply killed the product and laid off the developers.
This is why proprietary Unix was a bad thing, kids. Too much infighting.
The only thing that HP wanted to port from Tru64 was the clustering
product - TruClusters. ?I could go into a long story as to why that
failed, but it wasn't for technical reasons which only illustrates
your point.
AIUI, HP also wanted AdvFS and the Tru64 Logical Storage Manager.
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2004/12/02/hp_ends_tru64/

AdvFS got open-sourced, but it's not attracted much interest AFAIK:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AdvFS
http://advfs.sourceforge.net/

LSM was the homegrown DEC equivalent of the licenced-in Veritas
storage manager, as also used in Windows 2000 Server and later:
http://h30097.www3.hp.com/tiplsm.html
The Linux equivalent is LVM.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Logical_Volume_Manager_(Linux)

It's a real shame. OSF/1 was the last survivor of the OSF's project to
create a new, advanced Unix with some of the old cruft removed. It was
based on the same Mach kernel as NEXTstep, OPENstep, Mac OS X, Apple
iOS and MkLinux.

HP/UX is an old-time Unix which has been doing its own thing since the
days of Unix System III.

Still, Linux will probably eventually supplant all of them. :?)
--
Liam Proven ? Info & profile: http://www.google.com/profiles/lproven
Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com
Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419
AIM/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven ? MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? ICQ: 73187508
Jared Greenwald
2011-04-21 17:54:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by Liam Proven
Post by Jared Greenwald
Post by Liam Proven
Post by Mike McGinn
Post by Smoot Carl-Mitchell
Post by Joep L. Blom
The story is then that Olson was so pissed off that he put the PDP-11
within 9 months in the market and when you opened the 2 boxes you didn't
find much difference.
I assume other computer veterans on this list can give better details on
this.
Any way on this site > http://gunkies.org/wiki/PDP-11
the PDP11-20 is said to be set into the market in 1970 and ran several
OS. Unix (DEC name: Ultrix) was one of them.
Ultrix did not appear until after the AT&T breakup in the early 80s.
Ultrix was a derivative of the BSD Unix work and ran on the VAX
hardware. I think you could get a PDP-11 version, but I am not sure
about that. ?In the 70s Unix was put out under various research
"Editions". ?The last one from AT&T before the commercial System 3 was
Edition 7. ?I still have a paper manual for Edition 7 lying around the
house somewhere. ?Remarkably, the basic OS API and filesystem
permissions and structure is very similar to any modern Unix or Linux
system. ?Any competent sysadmin or programmer familiar with Linux would
feel right at home on Edition 7.
My first exposure to Ultrix was on the Alpha hardware. The later changed the
name to "Digital Unix". It was not a bad system to develop on. Most of the
places that I knew of with VAXes ran VMS, including the big physics labs.
I think your memories are a bit confused.
Ultrix never ran on Alpha. Ultrix ran only on VAXes, VAXstations and
DEC's MIPS-powered DECstations.
The Unix for Alpha was originally called OSF/1. Version 3.1 was
renamed Digital UNIX. Version 4 was renamed again, sadly, to the
horrible, twee "Tru64 UNIX."
Released versions only ever ran on Alpha. It was developed on MIPS but
that version was never released, and after Compaw bought DEC and then
HP bought Compaq, Tru64 was ported to Itanium, but again, never
released; HP simply killed the product and laid off the developers.
This is why proprietary Unix was a bad thing, kids. Too much infighting.
The only thing that HP wanted to port from Tru64 was the clustering
product - TruClusters. ?I could go into a long story as to why that
failed, but it wasn't for technical reasons which only illustrates
your point.
AIUI, HP also wanted AdvFS and the Tru64 Logical Storage Manager.
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2004/12/02/hp_ends_tru64/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AdvFS
http://advfs.sourceforge.net/
LSM was the homegrown DEC equivalent of the licenced-in Veritas
http://h30097.www3.hp.com/tiplsm.html
The Linux equivalent is LVM.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Logical_Volume_Manager_(Linux)
Ah yes, completely forgot about those. But to be fair those were the
parts of Tru64 that TruClusters were dependent on. The cluster file
system that TruClusters used was heavily integrated with AdvFS.

Funny thing is that a good handful of the AvdFS, CFS and LVM
developers ended up at Oracle working on a clustered file system and
dynamic block device (Oracle ACFS & Oracle ADVM). Even more amusing
is that the actual HP building where Tru64/TruCluster was being worked
on is literally right next to the Oracle building where those new
teams are.
Post by Liam Proven
It's a real shame. OSF/1 was the last survivor of the OSF's project to
create a new, advanced Unix with some of the old cruft removed. It was
based on the same Mach kernel as NEXTstep, OPENstep, Mac OS X, Apple
iOS and MkLinux.
HP/UX is an old-time Unix which has been doing its own thing since the
days of Unix System III.
Still, Linux will probably eventually supplant all of them. :?)
Liam Proven
2011-04-21 18:01:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by Liam Proven
Post by Jared Greenwald
Post by Liam Proven
Post by Mike McGinn
Post by Smoot Carl-Mitchell
Post by Joep L. Blom
The story is then that Olson was so pissed off that he put the PDP-11
within 9 months in the market and when you opened the 2 boxes you didn't
find much difference.
I assume other computer veterans on this list can give better details on
this.
Any way on this site > http://gunkies.org/wiki/PDP-11
the PDP11-20 is said to be set into the market in 1970 and ran several
OS. Unix (DEC name: Ultrix) was one of them.
Ultrix did not appear until after the AT&T breakup in the early 80s.
Ultrix was a derivative of the BSD Unix work and ran on the VAX
hardware. I think you could get a PDP-11 version, but I am not sure
about that. ?In the 70s Unix was put out under various research
"Editions". ?The last one from AT&T before the commercial System 3 was
Edition 7. ?I still have a paper manual for Edition 7 lying around the
house somewhere. ?Remarkably, the basic OS API and filesystem
permissions and structure is very similar to any modern Unix or Linux
system. ?Any competent sysadmin or programmer familiar with Linux would
feel right at home on Edition 7.
My first exposure to Ultrix was on the Alpha hardware. The later changed the
name to "Digital Unix". It was not a bad system to develop on. Most of the
places that I knew of with VAXes ran VMS, including the big physics labs.
I think your memories are a bit confused.
Ultrix never ran on Alpha. Ultrix ran only on VAXes, VAXstations and
DEC's MIPS-powered DECstations.
The Unix for Alpha was originally called OSF/1. Version 3.1 was
renamed Digital UNIX. Version 4 was renamed again, sadly, to the
horrible, twee "Tru64 UNIX."
Released versions only ever ran on Alpha. It was developed on MIPS but
that version was never released, and after Compaw bought DEC and then
HP bought Compaq, Tru64 was ported to Itanium, but again, never
released; HP simply killed the product and laid off the developers.
This is why proprietary Unix was a bad thing, kids. Too much infighting.
The only thing that HP wanted to port from Tru64 was the clustering
product - TruClusters. ?I could go into a long story as to why that
failed, but it wasn't for technical reasons which only illustrates
your point.
AIUI, HP also wanted AdvFS and the Tru64 Logical Storage Manager.
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2004/12/02/hp_ends_tru64/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AdvFS
http://advfs.sourceforge.net/
LSM was the homegrown DEC equivalent of the licenced-in Veritas
http://h30097.www3.hp.com/tiplsm.html
The Linux equivalent is LVM.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Logical_Volume_Manager_(Linux)
Ah yes, completely forgot about those. ?But to be fair those were the
parts of Tru64 that TruClusters were dependent on. ?The cluster file
system that TruClusters used was heavily integrated with AdvFS.
Funny thing is that a good handful of the AvdFS, CFS and LVM
developers ended up at Oracle working on a clustered file system and
dynamic block device (Oracle ACFS & Oracle ADVM).
Ahh, right! I did not realise that. I'm afraid the only clustered
environments I've worked on were DEC VAXclusters and Novell Netware 3
SFTIII (which wasn't a true cluster anyway.) From the little I know,
nothing else compares to VAXclusters, anyway.
?Even more amusing
is that the actual HP building where Tru64/TruCluster was being worked
on is literally right next to the Oracle building where those new
teams are.
Ha! Is that in Maynard, Massachusetts?
--
Liam Proven ? Info & profile: http://www.google.com/profiles/lproven
Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com
Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419
AIM/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven ? MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? ICQ: 73187508
Ric Moore
2011-04-22 00:45:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by Smoot Carl-Mitchell
Post by Joep L. Blom
The story is then that Olson was so pissed off that he put the PDP-11
within 9 months in the market and when you opened the 2 boxes you didn't
find much difference.
I assume other computer veterans on this list can give better details on
this.
Any way on this site > http://gunkies.org/wiki/PDP-11
the PDP11-20 is said to be set into the market in 1970 and ran several
OS. Unix (DEC name: Ultrix) was one of them.
Ultrix did not appear until after the AT&T breakup in the early 80s.
Ultrix was a derivative of the BSD Unix work and ran on the VAX
hardware. I think you could get a PDP-11 version, but I am not sure
about that. In the 70s Unix was put out under various research
"Editions". The last one from AT&T before the commercial System 3 was
Edition 7. I still have a paper manual for Edition 7 lying around the
house somewhere. Remarkably, the basic OS API and filesystem
permissions and structure is very similar to any modern Unix or Linux
system. Any competent sysadmin or programmer familiar with Linux would
feel right at home on Edition 7.
I had a Federal Surplus'd Unisys 5000/90 that I bought for $301. Took a
moving van to get it home and when the land-lady spotted the ramp from
the moving van connected to the front porch, she told me she had decided
to sell the place.

After I found more suitable digs (what used to be a bank) to move into
and had a power panel capable of handling that beast, sucking 60 amps @
220V when it booted, I loaded the tapes and checked it out. Sure enough,
it wasn't much different from my Caldera install there. I even managed
to get the two crudely connected via ethernet. Damn thing had no
compiler with it. So much for the days of proprietary Big Iron. Unisys
told me that they would sell me a site license for around 9 grand.
Today, I'd try like hell to get Linux on it, if there was still support
for the 60820.

Ergo, I've not been hugely in favor of all the changes /etc has been put
through in the last few years. I used to be soooo simple. But, I was
royally jerked when pam came along, too. <chuckles> Ric
--
My father, Victor Moore (Vic) used to say:
"There are two Great Sins in the world...
..the Sin of Ignorance, and the Sin of Stupidity.
Only the former may be overcome." R.I.P. Dad.
Linux user# 44256
simpleLinux
2011-04-17 07:44:12 UTC
Permalink
You sir, are a genius

Respect!!!
Post by Gilles Gravier
What I want to add to the debate is that this is a "BETA" version. We
are talking about a product not yet finished. Not yet ready for
mission-critical use.
I understand Basil being upset. But in a way, he "asked for it". When
one downloads a beta, one does so expecting to get into trouble, and to
report these bugs. And complaining strongly that a beta is buggy is,
well, to say the least, not what is expected of a user of a beta.
That kind of complaining *MIGHT* be justified *ONLY* once the product is
final... :)
Basil has been around enough to know about Beta's. Now that he's got
some good information, he can make better choices. It just didn't act as
he thought it would/should. Stuff is changing! Heck, I still miss line
numbered BASIC. But, if the installer can check for the fastest mirror,
which there is an option for with RPM, if I recall correctly, it would
be better. I've seen some less than modem speeds recently during
updates. Me, I decided after doing the Fedora thing for some time, that
I don't make a good beta tester. I'm getting too long in the tooth. But,
Basil's thing wasn't that it was a Beta, but that he couldn't get
installed. At that point, it appears more an Alpha than a Beta. :) Ric
I came to the following conclusion last night - and your comments contain some of those conclusions in one way or another.
The only people who do any 'testing' of these Linux distros, or even try and use them, are old farts who have nothing better to do other than waste whatever remaining time they have on this earth in trying to appear useful for some cause - in this case pretending they have a great big interest in trying to convert the world to use a Linux distro of their "choice" when they perfectly well know, but still delude themselves that this is not the case, that 99.9% of the world is not going to stop using Windows or Apple MAC but change over to some Linux distro.
The only interest the old farts seem to have in this whole affair is having some sort of social life by belonging to the mail lists and where they can parry and trust with words and put down people at the first opportunity.
They even go around organising "Release Parties" - such as is currently being done here in Australia - to "celebrate" the release of Natty in a couple of weeks!
The only comments the old farts can contribute to some adverse remark about something such as what is being talked about here is, "But its ONLY a Beta, HA, HA, HA, and EVERYBODY knows you pay no attention to what a Beta doesn't do! and so don't complain but help to propagate this delusion that your "testing" is important and submit a BUG report (woohoo! a BUG report - that magical expression, "BUG report", which suddenly is intended to confer on you membership of the inner circle of a special corp of Boy Scouts whose members are most likely to have an average age of 75 years!).
How many young people have been converted to using Linux - but let's say, Ubuntu?
Bugger all I would say.
The only people talking about Linux are old farts - not young people. The young ones go for the latest version of Firefox and Chrome - but even these are not available to them in a released version of a distro because such things are not backported.
And when some young person comes along and starts to ask questions, what do the old farts say to him/her? "Don't expect us to do your homework/assignment for you! Go and google for the information you free loader!".
About 4 years ago in another distro I suggested to the 'boss' of the project to give a copy of the distro to all the kids in his street and ask them to tear the system apart and find all the faults in it so that the faults can be rectified before it is finally released. Yeah, right..... The only people still doing any testing are old farts......and young kids don't get to know Linux.
And speaking of which..... and I will not make any further comment/observation on this matter.... some parts of Natty crashed on me today. When the crashes occurred I was asked if I want to submit a report to help the developers solve the crashes - I answered YES and reports were generated; but then I was asked to provide my name, e-mail address, a password for some account, the size of my shoes, religious inclinations, my inside leg measurement - which I refused to do and so the developers got zilch to help them solve the crashes. If the system generates the damn crash report why the heck should I provide all such unnecessary details? Is someone afraid that I could waste my time coming up with a bogus report just to get my jollies off?
Anyway, complaining or pointing out some problems is not what using an operating system is about. I want to use it to do things and not spend time reporting on hassles. So, from now on just reading what is written by people and keeping up with the people I got to know here.
When you think about it, many, many people have spent time and effort in coding, looking for hassles, reporting the hassles only to find now that whatever they have been doing for a long time has been for nought and now they - if they consider that there is no other life for them outside of reporting 'bugs' - have to start all over again because Unity is here! "Sorry, but stuff this for a joke", is what I expect some people to conclude.
BC
--
Great Man reaches complete understanding of the main issues; Petty Man reaches complete understanding of the minute details."
? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? Confucius
--
ubuntu-users mailing list
ubuntu-users at lists.ubuntu.com
Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-users
--
*Fariz Luqman*
The Chairman of SimpleLinux
Visit: http://www.simplelinux.tk
Fb: http://facebook.com/simpleLinux

"There IS a Malaysian Linux Distro"

---
Facebook: facebook.com/farizluqman
Alan Pope
2011-04-15 09:24:45 UTC
Permalink
Supplementing my understanding with a reply from the "Ubiquity guy"
Evan Dandrea..
Post by Alan Pope
{end of my understanding}
https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-devel-announce/2011-April/000841.html

"In 11.04 and later versions, the desktop CD installer (ubiquity)
presents an option to upgrade Ubuntu if it finds a single copy on the
system. This functionality is not exactly equal in operation to
upgrade-manager, nor does it share much code with that application.

Such an upgrade will first make a backup of apt's state, including
repacked debs (using dpkg-repack) for any packages that it cannot find
a source for. Following this, it will delete all non-user and
non-local files on the existing partitions. This is roughly
everything but /usr/local, /var/local, /usr/src, and /home. It will
then install Ubuntu over top of the partially-cleared directory
structure and install the packages referenced in the apt state backup.

When triaging upgrade bugs, please make sure they're targeted to and
have logs for the correct package. If the user upgrades via the
option in the desktop CD installer, change the package to ubiquity and
have the user run `sudo apport-collect $bug_number`.

Thanks,
Evan"

Cheers,
Al.
Mister IT Guru
2011-04-15 13:33:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by Alan Pope
Hi Basil,
<SNIP>
Post by Alan Pope
Indeed it isn't a laughing matter. It's an issue that may bite lots of
other people too. The community spirited thing to do would be to let
the developers know about this issue, and the best way to do that is
file a bug, see link above. I'll also point the Ubiquity developer at
this thread to see if there's anything he can learn from it.
Cheers,
Al.
You are a better man than me Al! I fear I would have said - It's
LABELLED BETA for good reason!! This was a very good answer!

Also, Basil keep some old hardware around for beta testing, I got a few
junk rigs, none cost more than ?80, and I also got spare partitions on
my high end stuff so that I can test bleeding edge. You only need about
10G for a full clean install.
simpleLinux
2011-04-16 01:47:05 UTC
Permalink
think it's the repo. I'm downloading apps AT A LOVELY 3 KBPS on a 10 Mbps
broadband... theehee.. But I didn't expect the BETA will work the same as
releases because it's there to be tested by developers, so they can overcome
problems, just like you are facing.

Cheers :)
Fariz Luqman
Post by Mister IT Guru
Post by Alan Pope
Hi Basil,
<SNIP>
Post by Alan Pope
Indeed it isn't a laughing matter. It's an issue that may bite lots of
other people too. The community spirited thing to do would be to let
the developers know about this issue, and the best way to do that is
file a bug, see link above. I'll also point the Ubiquity developer at
this thread to see if there's anything he can learn from it.
Cheers,
Al.
You are a better man than me Al! I fear I would have said - It's
LABELLED BETA for good reason!! This was a very good answer!
Also, Basil keep some old hardware around for beta testing, I got a few
junk rigs, none cost more than ?80, and I also got spare partitions on
my high end stuff so that I can test bleeding edge. You only need about
10G for a full clean install.
--
ubuntu-users mailing list
ubuntu-users at lists.ubuntu.com
https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-users
--
*Fariz Luqman*
The Chairman of SimpleLinux
Visit: http://www.simplelinux.tk
Fb: http://facebook.com/simpleLinux

"There IS a Malaysian Linux Distro"

---
Facebook: facebook.com/farizluqman
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James Freer
2011-04-16 08:47:41 UTC
Permalink
To me a Beta version is for testing and thus should be done on a spare
machine. As far as release versions go Ubuntu seem to 'cut it fine'. I
only install a main version a couple of months late after any further
problems have been ironed out.

james
Post by simpleLinux
think it's the repo. I'm downloading apps AT A LOVELY 3 KBPS on a 10 Mbps
broadband... theehee.. But I didn't expect the BETA will work the same as
releases because it's there to be tested by developers, so they can overcome
problems, just like you are facing.
Cheers :)
Fariz Luqman
On Fri, Apr 15, 2011 at 9:33 PM, Mister IT Guru <misteritguru at gmx.com>
Post by Mister IT Guru
Post by Alan Pope
Hi Basil,
<SNIP>
Post by Alan Pope
Indeed it isn't a laughing matter. It's an issue that may bite lots of
other people too. The community spirited thing to do would be to let
the developers know about this issue, and the best way to do that is
file a bug, see link above. I'll also point the Ubiquity developer at
this thread to see if there's anything he can learn from it.
Cheers,
Al.
You are a better man than me Al! I fear I would have said - It's
LABELLED BETA for good reason!! This was a very good answer!
Also, Basil keep some old hardware around for beta testing, I got a few
junk rigs, none cost more than ?80, and I also got spare partitions on
my high end stuff so that I can test bleeding edge. You only need about
10G for a full clean install.
--
ubuntu-users mailing list
ubuntu-users at lists.ubuntu.com
https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-users
--
Fariz Luqman
The Chairman of SimpleLinux
Visit: http://www.simplelinux.tk
Fb: http://facebook.com/simpleLinux
"There IS a Malaysian Linux Distro"
---
Facebook: facebook.com/farizluqman
--
ubuntu-users mailing list
ubuntu-users at lists.ubuntu.com
https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-users
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