Discussion:
How to coordinate the clock when dual-booting with Windows
(too old to reply)
Kevin O'Gorman
2017-12-09 23:00:56 UTC
Permalink
I've installed Ubuntu into a Windows laptop. I missed the place where I
was supposed to tell the install that the clock will be kept in local time,
so switching between Linux and Windows is a pain.

Is there a way to fix this short of going back and doing it again?

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Xen
2017-12-10 07:04:13 UTC
Permalink
Kevin O'Gorman schreef op 10-12-2017 0:00:

> I've installed Ubuntu into a Windows laptop. I missed the place where
> I was supposed to tell the install that the clock will be kept in local
> time, so switching between Linux and Windows is a pain.

sudo timedatectl set-local-rtc true

> Is there a way to fix this short of going back and doing it again?

It's not possible to do it in the installer, I'm sorry.

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Kevin O'Gorman
2017-12-11 04:10:18 UTC
Permalink
On Sat, Dec 9, 2017 at 11:04 PM, Xen <***@xenhideout.nl> wrote:

> Kevin O'Gorman schreef op 10-12-2017 0:00:
>
> I've installed Ubuntu into a Windows laptop. I missed the place where I
>> was supposed to tell the install that the clock will be kept in local time,
>> so switching between Linux and Windows is a pain.
>>
>
> sudo timedatectl set-local-rtc true
>
>
This command is accepted on my Dell Laptop. However, it does not seem to
change anything.

The odd thing is that Linux and the Dell BIOS show local time, but when I
boot Windows, the time needs to be adjusted. I thought Windows always
accepted the BIOS date and time.


> Is there a way to fix this short of going back and doing it again?
>>
>
> It's not possible to do it in the installer, I'm sorry.
>
>
I had done this with Ubuntu Server, and it asked the question during
install. I assumed the question occured in all installs, but I guess I was
wrong.


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Colin Law
2017-12-10 09:42:26 UTC
Permalink
On 9 December 2017 at 23:00, Kevin O'Gorman <***@gmail.com> wrote:

> I've installed Ubuntu into a Windows laptop. I missed the place where I
> was supposed to tell the install that the clock will be kept in local time,
> so switching between Linux and Windows is a pain.
>

The clock is not normally an issue when dual booting. Are you sure you have
setup the timezone correctly in both environments? To check in Ubuntu run,
in a terminal
date
and it will show the date/time and timezone. If it is wrong then you can
run
sudo dpkg-reconfigure tzdata
to set it up. Don't know how to do that in Windows.

Colin


>
Liam Proven
2017-12-10 15:45:31 UTC
Permalink
On 10 December 2017 at 10:42, Colin Law <***@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> The clock is not normally an issue when dual booting.

It bally well is for me!

E.g. if it's set to local time, both OSes move the system clock
forward or backwards when daylight savings times begins or ends,
resulting in a 2h discrepancy.

My solution: minimize use of Windows. I boot it a couple of times a
year, if that, normally.

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Colin Law
2017-12-10 15:52:53 UTC
Permalink
On 10 December 2017 at 15:45, Liam Proven <***@gmail.com> wrote:

> On 10 December 2017 at 10:42, Colin Law <***@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > The clock is not normally an issue when dual booting.
>
> It bally well is for me!
>
> E.g. if it's set to local time, both OSes move the system clock
> forward or backwards when daylight savings times begins or ends,
> resulting in a 2h discrepancy.
>
> My solution: minimize use of Windows. I boot it a couple of times a
> year, if that, normally.
>

Interesting, I have never seen that. I assumed the system clock was in UTC,
and so would not change with DST. You may be right about that though, I
have no evidence either way. However I would have thought it would re-sync
the next time ntpdate or whatever it is that does the auto timesync ran.

Colin
Peter Silva
2017-12-10 15:57:51 UTC
Permalink
can confirm, at least in older versions of windows, localtime
(whatever timezone was set) was the time saved in the bios. Dunno if
current windows versions have smartened up, but it never used to store
in UTC.

I agree that the sensible thing to do is for all OS's to always store
time in UTC at the hardware level and do the timezone in the OS, but
that's not how it was done before, might have improved in recent
years.


On Sun, Dec 10, 2017 at 10:52 AM, Colin Law <***@gmail.com> wrote:
> On 10 December 2017 at 15:45, Liam Proven <***@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> On 10 December 2017 at 10:42, Colin Law <***@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >
>> > The clock is not normally an issue when dual booting.
>>
>> It bally well is for me!
>>
>> E.g. if it's set to local time, both OSes move the system clock
>> forward or backwards when daylight savings times begins or ends,
>> resulting in a 2h discrepancy.
>>
>> My solution: minimize use of Windows. I boot it a couple of times a
>> year, if that, normally.
>
>
> Interesting, I have never seen that. I assumed the system clock was in UTC,
> and so would not change with DST. You may be right about that though, I
> have no evidence either way. However I would have thought it would re-sync
> the next time ntpdate or whatever it is that does the auto timesync ran.
>
> Colin
>
>
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Xen
2017-12-10 16:05:59 UTC
Permalink
Peter Silva schreef op 10-12-2017 16:57:
> can confirm, at least in older versions of windows, localtime
> (whatever timezone was set) was the time saved in the bios. Dunno if
> current windows versions have smartened up, but it never used to store
> in UTC.
>
> I agree that the sensible thing to do is for all OS's to always store
> time in UTC at the hardware level and do the timezone in the OS, but
> that's not how it was done before, might have improved in recent
> years.

No it's still the same.

Personally I think saving in the local time zone is more logical, a bit
the same as using dead keys for a particular (local) keyboard.

I don't need to be universal.

I'm pretty sure they don't have our keyboards on the Pleiades anyway.

;-).

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Peter Silva
2017-12-10 16:24:26 UTC
Permalink
I'm totally biased, having a long standing hatred for time zones... I
work in a job where there are at least five different timezones in use
all day, every day, and they are always a pain. I work with a guy
trouble tracking issues, and the same system reports all times in his
timezone, and to me in my timezone (3 hours different.) while the
systems we are running together (for sanity) are all in UTC, it is
very, very confusing.

Sample bug... we download data from an ftp server that is in their
local time zone. We need to pick out the new files that showed up in
a tree since the last time we looked (we look every few minutes.) we
basically store the result of each listing in a file, and diff it.

Every six months, All of the files in the tree change, because the
operating system reports a different date for the same file than it
did an hour before... many thousands of files, and then they get
processed... yes we can write vastly more complicated logic to work
around this, but diffing files just won't work... twice a year.

yes, seething hatred...



On Sun, Dec 10, 2017 at 11:05 AM, Xen <***@xenhideout.nl> wrote:
> Peter Silva schreef op 10-12-2017 16:57:
>>
>> can confirm, at least in older versions of windows, localtime
>> (whatever timezone was set) was the time saved in the bios. Dunno if
>> current windows versions have smartened up, but it never used to store
>> in UTC.
>>
>> I agree that the sensible thing to do is for all OS's to always store
>> time in UTC at the hardware level and do the timezone in the OS, but
>> that's not how it was done before, might have improved in recent
>> years.
>
>
> No it's still the same.
>
> Personally I think saving in the local time zone is more logical, a bit the
> same as using dead keys for a particular (local) keyboard.
>
> I don't need to be universal.
>
> I'm pretty sure they don't have our keyboards on the Pleiades anyway.
>
> ;-).
>
>
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Xen
2017-12-10 16:50:35 UTC
Permalink
Peter Silva schreef op 10-12-2017 17:24:

> Every six months, All of the files in the tree change, because the
> operating system reports a different date for the same file than it
> did an hour before... many thousands of files, and then they get
> processed... yes we can write vastly more complicated logic to work
> around this, but diffing files just won't work... twice a year.

:).

Fat32 stores in local time, NTFS in UTC.

The problem is not the local time. The problem is UTC, I feel :p.

For Windows, this problem is that if you have a sync utility with your
main system on UTC, and your backup on fat32 (e.g. USB stick) you get
the same problem.

Fat32 simply won't change the time. It does not even have timezone
information.

03:00 on december 1 always remains that no matter what you do to the
clock.

The calculations should be done when data is moved; the movement is a
relative phenomenon.

Our UTC system would collapse the moment "central time" was defined
somewhere else (e.g. in another solar system) because then we'd *still*
have to do relative movement calculations the moment you move data from
one system to another.

In other words, supposing the other system also used absolute time, this
movement would be the difference between the two axes (if that made
sense at all).

But it would be the exact same relative calculation we are now trying to
avoid by using central time.

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Colin Law
2017-12-10 16:11:53 UTC
Permalink
On 10 December 2017 at 15:57, Peter Silva <***@bsqt.homeip.net> wrote:

> can confirm, at least in older versions of windows, localtime
> (whatever timezone was set) was the time saved in the bios. Dunno if
> current windows versions have smartened up, but it never used to store
> in UTC.
>
> I agree that the sensible thing to do is for all OS's to always store
> time in UTC at the hardware level and do the timezone in the OS, but
> that's not how it was done before, might have improved in recent
> years.
>

I understand the original question now, the solution to MS's garbage
(though that might just be my view) system is tell Ubuntu to do the same,
using timedatectl as suggested by Xen. I gather there are windows registry
mods one can do to change the way Windows does it, though there is debate
about the reliability of that.

Thanks to all for the education.

Colin



>
>
> On Sun, Dec 10, 2017 at 10:52 AM, Colin Law <***@gmail.com> wrote:
> > On 10 December 2017 at 15:45, Liam Proven <***@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> On 10 December 2017 at 10:42, Colin Law <***@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> >
> >> > The clock is not normally an issue when dual booting.
> >>
> >> It bally well is for me!
> >>
> >> E.g. if it's set to local time, both OSes move the system clock
> >> forward or backwards when daylight savings times begins or ends,
> >> resulting in a 2h discrepancy.
> >>
> >> My solution: minimize use of Windows. I boot it a couple of times a
> >> year, if that, normally.
> >
> >
> > Interesting, I have never seen that. I assumed the system clock was in
> UTC,
> > and so would not change with DST. You may be right about that though, I
> > have no evidence either way. However I would have thought it would
> re-sync
> > the next time ntpdate or whatever it is that does the auto timesync ran.
> >
> > Colin
> >
> >
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> >
>
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Xen
2017-12-10 16:38:05 UTC
Permalink
Colin Law schreef op 10-12-2017 17:11:

> I understand the original question now, the solution to MS's garbage
> (though that might just be my view) system is tell Ubuntu to do the
> same, using timedatectl as suggested by Xen. I gather there are windows
> registry mods one can do to change the way Windows does it, though
> there is debate about the reliability of that.

Well personally I think the issue is whether you will use relative or
absolute coordination.

We humans like to think we are the centre of the universe and that
Greenwhich is that.

And then we try to use absolute coordinates.

I think if we ever became part of a space-faring society we'd realize
that relative referencing is a lot more stable ;-).

(Or if we understood Einstein better :p).

IPv4 NAT is a form of relative, IPv6 without NAT is a form of absolute.

If you use relative referencing your system can easily be integrated
into a bigger system, if you use absolute, it can't, but needs
translations at ever border.

Not only does it need translations at every border, you also now need
multiple addressing systems at the same time, or ***@border
addresses.

It's a bit like using relative symlinks versus absolute ones.

Absolute ones break immediately and require chroots to keep functioning.

The "chroot" is equivalent to the "@border" address.

So the Linux people say: use UTC with timezone.

What if you don't know your timezone?

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Peter Silva
2017-12-10 17:00:38 UTC
Permalink
If you don't know your timezone, then you don't know what time it is.
This relative/absolute dichotomy is a red-herring, because time isn't
only used within one frame of reference.
Time is very often use to co-ordinate things among people who aren't
in the same frame of reference. It's just like timezones, only worse
with Einstein because now time doesn't even run at the same speed.
How do you schedule a meeting between someone on earth and someone
orbiting at a speed where relativity is an issue?

You need a means to map the various relative times to the standard
one, and then communicate in the standard time reference. This isn't
at all academic. All (LEO) navigation satellites are built to
account the fact that the atomic clocks on board are running slower
relative to the earth because of their relative velocity to their
users. All navigation systems use UTC because anything else would be
totally insane.



On Sun, Dec 10, 2017 at 11:38 AM, Xen <***@xenhideout.nl> wrote:
> Colin Law schreef op 10-12-2017 17:11:
>
>> I understand the original question now, the solution to MS's garbage
>> (though that might just be my view) system is tell Ubuntu to do the same,
>> using timedatectl as suggested by Xen. I gather there are windows registry
>> mods one can do to change the way Windows does it, though there is debate
>> about the reliability of that.
>
>
> Well personally I think the issue is whether you will use relative or
> absolute coordination.
>
> We humans like to think we are the centre of the universe and that
> Greenwhich is that.
>
> And then we try to use absolute coordinates.
>
> I think if we ever became part of a space-faring society we'd realize that
> relative referencing is a lot more stable ;-).
>
> (Or if we understood Einstein better :p).
>
> IPv4 NAT is a form of relative, IPv6 without NAT is a form of absolute.
>
> If you use relative referencing your system can easily be integrated into a
> bigger system, if you use absolute, it can't, but needs translations at ever
> border.
>
> Not only does it need translations at every border, you also now need
> multiple addressing systems at the same time, or ***@border addresses.
>
> It's a bit like using relative symlinks versus absolute ones.
>
> Absolute ones break immediately and require chroots to keep functioning.
>
> The "chroot" is equivalent to the "@border" address.
>
> So the Linux people say: use UTC with timezone.
>
> What if you don't know your timezone?
>
>
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Xen
2017-12-10 17:26:10 UTC
Permalink
Peter Silva schreef op 10-12-2017 18:00:
> If you don't know your timezone, then you don't know what time it is.

Then you don't know what time it is, because you don't know the time
with respect to the rest of the universe.

> This relative/absolute dichotomy is a red-herring, because time isn't
> only used within one frame of reference.

The frames are relative to one another.

> Time is very often use to co-ordinate things among people who aren't
> in the same frame of reference. It's just like timezones, only worse
> with Einstein because now time doesn't even run at the same speed.
> How do you schedule a meeting between someone on earth and someone
> orbiting at a speed where relativity is an issue?
>
> You need a means to map the various relative times to the standard
> one, and then communicate in the standard time reference. This isn't
> at all academic. All (LEO) navigation satellites are built to
> account the fact that the atomic clocks on board are running slower
> relative to the earth because of their relative velocity to their
> users.

So they translate their local frame to the earth frame, which is really
only sensible if you are going to move information to earth.

Now of course you suggest that they "keep up" their time by adding a
multiplication and thus make sure they always have Earth time, right?

Thus they keep UTC time at all times.

But they can do this because they are orbiting a planet and thus the
planet is the frame of reference.

Effectively they don't "know" what UTC time is, it is just a time
they've been set to and try to "keep up", if they lose it, they can't
magically rediscover UTC time, except by measuring the physical
properties of the Earth relative to the Sun or something like that.

We also don't know what our time is with regards to daylight savings,
but that is a warp regardless.

If you move into space, it is said, you lose a sense of up/down,
left/right.

I don't discount that hierarchy forms part of the universe, ie. moons
belong to planets, planets to suns, and so on.

Yet would you advocate keeping time locally on Earth in the central time
of some higher-up central sun that you were part of?

Even supposing these translations would be simple, how are you going to
keep Earth time in the time frame of some planet with 30 hour days?

Would you seriously consider adopting a 30 hour day calendar just so you
can speak the "same language"?

And then call everything else "insane"? :).

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Peter Silva
2017-12-10 19:43:45 UTC
Permalink
There is nothing special about UTC, any more than there is anything
special about Greenwich, or Earth. One just needs to select a known
reference in order to compare times in different frames. This is the
entire reason the metric system was invented. When every local area
could have it's own units of measure, commerce over large distances
was difficult because amounts of anything were very difficult to
compare. It is the normal and general solution for everyone to agree
on a standard unit, folks convert from their locally convenient unit
to the reference and vice versa.

Without that sort of convention, how would you suggest to arrange a
meeting of 10 spacecraft initially travelling at different velocities
in different directions at a given location, velocity and direction,
at a given time? They need to agree on a common measure of time, and
it doesn't matter what it is, but it has to be common. To do anything
else would do extreme violence to Ockam's razor.



On Sun, Dec 10, 2017 at 12:26 PM, Xen <***@xenhideout.nl> wrote:
> Peter Silva schreef op 10-12-2017 18:00:
>>
>> If you don't know your timezone, then you don't know what time it is.
>
>
> Then you don't know what time it is, because you don't know the time with
> respect to the rest of the universe.
>
>> This relative/absolute dichotomy is a red-herring, because time isn't
>> only used within one frame of reference.
>
>
> The frames are relative to one another.
>
>> Time is very often use to co-ordinate things among people who aren't
>> in the same frame of reference. It's just like timezones, only worse
>> with Einstein because now time doesn't even run at the same speed.
>> How do you schedule a meeting between someone on earth and someone
>> orbiting at a speed where relativity is an issue?
>>
>> You need a means to map the various relative times to the standard
>> one, and then communicate in the standard time reference. This isn't
>> at all academic. All (LEO) navigation satellites are built to
>> account the fact that the atomic clocks on board are running slower
>> relative to the earth because of their relative velocity to their
>> users.
>
>
> So they translate their local frame to the earth frame, which is really only
> sensible if you are going to move information to earth.
>
> Now of course you suggest that they "keep up" their time by adding a
> multiplication and thus make sure they always have Earth time, right?
>
> Thus they keep UTC time at all times.
>
> But they can do this because they are orbiting a planet and thus the planet
> is the frame of reference.
>
> Effectively they don't "know" what UTC time is, it is just a time they've
> been set to and try to "keep up", if they lose it, they can't magically
> rediscover UTC time, except by measuring the physical properties of the
> Earth relative to the Sun or something like that.
>
> We also don't know what our time is with regards to daylight savings, but
> that is a warp regardless.
>
> If you move into space, it is said, you lose a sense of up/down, left/right.
>
> I don't discount that hierarchy forms part of the universe, ie. moons belong
> to planets, planets to suns, and so on.
>
> Yet would you advocate keeping time locally on Earth in the central time of
> some higher-up central sun that you were part of?
>
> Even supposing these translations would be simple, how are you going to keep
> Earth time in the time frame of some planet with 30 hour days?
>
> Would you seriously consider adopting a 30 hour day calendar just so you can
> speak the "same language"?
>
> And then call everything else "insane"? :).
>
>
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Ralf Mardorf
2017-12-10 19:59:35 UTC
Permalink
On Sun, 10 Dec 2017 14:43:45 -0500, Peter Silva wrote:
>Without that sort of convention, how would you suggest to arrange a
>meeting of 10 spacecraft initially travelling at different velocities
>in different directions at a given location, velocity and direction,
>at a given time?

Fortunately "How to coordinate the clock when dual-booting with
Windows" doesn't require idiotic fantasies based on sciolism gained
from dumb TV reports about GTR and STR.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_triviality


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Peter Silva
2017-12-10 20:14:00 UTC
Permalink
when you're wrong, there is always trusty ad hominem to the rescue.

It wasn't me who brought up relativity. I'm just pointing out that
folks who bring up ridiculous analogies ought to make sure they
actually make sense. The arguments raised here smack of blinding with
science... aka BS. I completely agree that this is now
bikeshedding... and worse, nobody's going to paint the shed even if we
pick a colour.



On Sun, Dec 10, 2017 at 2:59 PM, Ralf Mardorf <***@zoho.com> wrote:
> On Sun, 10 Dec 2017 14:43:45 -0500, Peter Silva wrote:
>>Without that sort of convention, how would you suggest to arrange a
>>meeting of 10 spacecraft initially travelling at different velocities
>>in different directions at a given location, velocity and direction,
>>at a given time?
>
> Fortunately "How to coordinate the clock when dual-booting with
> Windows" doesn't require idiotic fantasies based on sciolism gained
> from dumb TV reports about GTR and STR.
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_triviality
>
>
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Ralf Mardorf
2017-12-10 20:26:28 UTC
Permalink
On Sun, 10 Dec 2017 15:14:00 -0500, Peter Silva wrote:
>On Sun, Dec 10, 2017 at 2:59 PM, Ralf Mardorf <***@zoho.com>
>wrote:
>> On Sun, 10 Dec 2017 14:43:45 -0500, Peter Silva wrote:
>>>Without that sort of convention, how would you suggest to arrange a
>>>meeting of 10 spacecraft initially travelling at different velocities
>>>in different directions at a given location, velocity and direction,
>>>at a given time?
>>
>> Fortunately "How to coordinate the clock when dual-booting with
>> Windows" doesn't require idiotic fantasies based on sciolism gained
>> from dumb TV reports about GTR and STR.
>>
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_triviality
>when you're wrong, there is always trusty ad hominem to the rescue.
>
>It wasn't me who brought up relativity. I'm just pointing out that
>folks who bring up ridiculous analogies ought to make sure they
>actually make sense. The arguments raised here smack of blinding with
>science... aka BS. I completely agree that this is now
>bikeshedding... and worse, nobody's going to paint the shed even if we
>pick a colour.

It isn't a personal attack against you, my intention is just to point
out that this discussion got out of control. It easily could happen
that I'm involved in such a discussion myself, without noticing that it
became grotesque. Fortunately this time I only lurked, so from an
outside POV it is easy for me, to comment this thread.


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Xen
2017-12-10 21:09:23 UTC
Permalink
Ralf Mardorf schreef op 10-12-2017 21:26:

> It isn't a personal attack against you, my intention is just to point
> out that this discussion got out of control. It easily could happen
> that I'm involved in such a discussion myself, without noticing that it
> became grotesque. Fortunately this time I only lurked, so from an
> outside POV it is easy for me, to comment this thread.

Funnily enough even though perhaps this is indeed trivial (but has cost
me a lot of time because of discrepancies in the Windows vs Linux clock)

bikeshedding refers to cosmetics. Yet Linux people constantly have to
deal with trivial issues, such as whether I write "!-d" or "! -d" in
Apache. Just an example.

Or the fact that awk requires \\1 but sed requires \1.

Or grep can use \b but in awk you need \\<, and so on and so on.

What clock to keep is much more fundamental, but what I see is that most
of our time is spent on trivialities.

If you never want to debate anything, you will keep nitpicking. But
anyway.

Sorry for the verbosity.

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Xen
2017-12-10 20:56:55 UTC
Permalink
On Sun, Dec 10, 2017 at 2:59 PM, Ralf Mardorf <***@zoho.com>
wrote:

> Fortunately "How to coordinate the clock when dual-booting with
> Windows" doesn't require idiotic fantasies based on sciolism gained
> from dumb TV reports about GTR and STR.

I rather think you are talking about me and not Peter.

But I think that in the end these are pretty fundamental issues,
particularly if you are going to paint the other choice as "crap" or
something similar.

Maybe it sounds trivial, but it currently inspires:

- the push in IPv6 / IP in general to do away with enclosed modular
networking (ie. NAT)

Many arguments of which are based on the "perfect sysadmin fallacy"
which implies that against all odds, the perfect sysadmin will still
perfectly configure a complicated system (ie. IPv6) and that any
subsequent security holes (even if they are many and prevalent) are just
the result of human incompetence (rather than a design that increases
the likelihood of mistakes).

To me modular (and relative addressing) versus "global scale" (and
absolute addressing) is a very significant topic which also (hence)
deals with DNS versus distributed DNS, and so on.

Linux in particular has never given any importance to proper _scoping_.

So it is not surprising to me that Linux people, who have a filesystem
without any sense of scoping whatsoever, and barely any "filtering" to
ensure users are not inundated with information,

would be strong proponents for "rational" "global" adressing mechanics.

This is relevant for:

- encapsulation in the FHS
- IPv6
- timekeeping

and so on.

The "push for uniformity" also defeats diversity and decentralisation.

"Common standards" in Linux often amount to "only one way of doing
things".

Gone is the era of building blocks.

I think that if you have no sympathy towards:
- a personal private network with private domains
- time kept in your own locality
- internal addresses that are not publicly routable
- a modular architecture where one solution may be replaced with another
- security by obscurity

Then I think you have lost touch with an important part of yourself that
is vital to designing good software.

Because, even though people are going to deny it, what software also
needs is "right brain" sensibility, and not just "left brain logic".

Of course "right brain" people are generally missing from Linux.

For example, one of the Unix principles is said to be:

"Rule of Economy: Programmer time is expensive; conserve it in
preference to machine time."

And yet shell scripting advocates often denounce "easy to read" in
favour of "fast to execute".

If anything, human resources are routinely wasted because of shabby
interfaces because they "ought to be good enough" (but they are only
good enough for a machine).

The paradox is that if you don't "waste" your time on improving
interfaces, you waste a lot more time in the long run.

Time invested in right-brain stuff pays off.

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Ralf Mardorf
2017-12-10 21:08:27 UTC
Permalink
On Sun, 10 Dec 2017 21:56:55 +0100, Xen wrote:
>Of course "right brain" people are generally missing from Linux.

I'm a Linux guy and I'm a dyslexic and I'm an artist. More right
brained is nearly impossible. To be honest I'm right-handed, so it's
still possible to be a "bit" more "right brain"ed, at least for those
who are left-handed dyslexic artists.


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Xen
2017-12-10 20:19:50 UTC
Permalink
Peter Silva schreef op 10-12-2017 20:43:

> Without that sort of convention, how would you suggest to arrange a
> meeting of 10 spacecraft initially travelling at different velocities
> in different directions at a given location, velocity and direction,
> at a given time? They need to agree on a common measure of time, and
> it doesn't matter what it is, but it has to be common. To do anything
> else would do extreme violence to Ockam's razor.

I guess you're right, but I just find it interesting to consider that
even time zones are hierarchical units based on a standard agreement
based on a central longitudinal angle.

UTC is the next step up.

Without it, you only have relative distances.

But my question is: why haven't you solved your time zone problem if
this system is the way it's supposed to work?

Not just talking about the daylight savings anomaly.

In a relative framework, there is only now.

And there is a physical distance (longitudinal) to other people.

Without time zones, even minutes in an hour would not be consistent.

You would have relative distances from the moment "now" with nothing
fixed to anchor to except for your own ability to keep time.

It also interests me because the phrase "2004" has a very different ring
to it than "13 years ago". Ie. it has a different impact on people, one
causes judgement, the other causes awe.

People only judge absolute phenomena, the mind attaches to it; while
relative phenomena escape "conclusions".

100 degrees C. is "hot", but not so hot if you just came from 110.

80 years is "old" but not if you are habitually around 100 year olds.

Every judgement based on fixed numbers remains an attachment in the mind
that to anyone who is a little older must sound very familiar and often
very untrue.

But I am going to be chastised here for writing off-topic posts even
though to me this is meaningful for the "local TZ" vs "UTC" debate ;-).

So see you around.

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Grizzly via ubuntu-users
2017-12-10 20:59:07 UTC
Permalink
10 December 2017 at 15:52, Colin Law wrote:
Re: How to coordinate the clock whe (at least in part)

>On 10 December 2017 at 15:45, Liam Proven <***@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> On 10 December 2017 at 10:42, Colin Law <***@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >
>> > The clock is not normally an issue when dual booting.
>>
>> It bally well is for me!
>>
>> E.g. if it's set to local time, both OSes move the system clock
>> forward or backwards when daylight savings times begins or ends,
>> resulting in a 2h discrepancy.
>>
>> My solution: minimize use of Windows. I boot it a couple of times a
>> year, if that, normally.
>>
>
>Interesting, I have never seen that. I assumed the system clock was in UTC,
>and so would not change with DST. You may be right about that though, I
>have no evidence either way. However I would have thought it would re-sync
>the next time ntpdate or whatever it is that does the auto timesync ran.

Its on a tab in date/time that not many people visit, default is off

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Kevin O'Gorman
2017-12-11 04:41:07 UTC
Permalink
On Sun, Dec 10, 2017 at 12:59 PM, Grizzly via ubuntu-users <
ubuntu-***@lists.ubuntu.com> wrote:

> 10 December 2017 at 15:52, Colin Law wrote:
> Re: How to coordinate the clock whe (at least in part)
>
> >On 10 December 2017 at 15:45, Liam Proven <***@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >> On 10 December 2017 at 10:42, Colin Law <***@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> >
> >> > The clock is not normally an issue when dual booting.
> >>
> >> It bally well is for me!
> >>
> >> E.g. if it's set to local time, both OSes move the system clock
> >> forward or backwards when daylight savings times begins or ends,
> >> resulting in a 2h discrepancy.
> >>
> >> My solution: minimize use of Windows. I boot it a couple of times a
> >> year, if that, normally.
> >>
> >
> >Interesting, I have never seen that. I assumed the system clock was in
> UTC,
> >and so would not change with DST. You may be right about that though, I
> >have no evidence either way. However I would have thought it would re-sync
> >the next time ntpdate or whatever it is that does the auto timesync ran.
>
> Its on a tab in date/time that not many people visit, default is off
>
>
> That's what I was hoping, but I cannot find anything about NTP in my
Windows 10.

Moreover, my laptop's BIOS is reporting local time, and Xubuntu agrees with
it, which is also a surprise.

Windows' time is 8 hours early, just as if it thought the BIOS time was UTC
and Windows was correcting to local. This disagrees with what I was
expecting. I'm not thoroughly baffled. And as the OP here, I sure wish
folks would stop chattering about relativity, personal preferences, and the
philosophy of time and just help me get my settings right. If you don't
know how, leave space for those who do.

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Grizzly via ubuntu-users
2017-12-11 07:23:53 UTC
Permalink
10 December 2017 at 20:41, Kevin O'Gorman wrote:
Re: How to coordinate the clock whe (at least in part)

>On Sun, Dec 10, 2017 at 12:59 PM, Grizzly via ubuntu-users <
>ubuntu-***@lists.ubuntu.com> wrote:
>
>> 10 December 2017 at 15:52, Colin Law wrote:
>> Re: How to coordinate the clock whe (at least in part)
>>
>> >On 10 December 2017 at 15:45, Liam Proven <***@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >
>> >> On 10 December 2017 at 10:42, Colin Law <***@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >> >
>> >> > The clock is not normally an issue when dual booting.
>> >>
>> >> It bally well is for me!
>> >>
>> >> E.g. if it's set to local time, both OSes move the system clock
>> >> forward or backwards when daylight savings times begins or ends,
>> >> resulting in a 2h discrepancy.
>> >>
>> >> My solution: minimize use of Windows. I boot it a couple of times a
>> >> year, if that, normally.
>> >>
>> >
>> >Interesting, I have never seen that. I assumed the system clock was in
>> UTC,
>> >and so would not change with DST. You may be right about that though, I
>> >have no evidence either way. However I would have thought it would re-sync
>> >the next time ntpdate or whatever it is that does the auto timesync ran.

>> Its on a tab in date/time that not many people visit, default is off

>> That's what I was hoping, but I cannot find anything about NTP in my
>Windows 10.

Must admit I was unsure if the same controls carry forward to later windoz, (I
stopped at Win7) it looks like they do

https://www.isunshare.com/windows-10/2-ways-to-change-date-and-time-on-windows-1
0.html

only difference appears that you only see the internet time when you click
"Change date time"

here it (now) has a number of possible time server, IIRC it came with only two
(unreliable), the rest I added later

there is a reg entry

[HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SOFTWARE\Microsoft\Windows\CurrentVersion\DateTime\Servers]
@="3"
"1"="time.windows.com"
"2"="129.6.15.29"
"3"="0.uk.pool.ntp.org"
"4"="1.uk.pool.ntp.org"
"6"="ntp2b.mcc.ac.uk"
"5"="ntp2a.mcc.ac.uk"
"7"="ntp2c.mcc.ac.uk"
"8"="ntp2d.mcc.ac.uk"
"9"="ntp.exnet.com"

the chosen NTP server does propagate to other Reg entries

but you can manually add direct in the dialogue if you don't want to delve in
Registry


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Kevin O'Gorman
2017-12-11 19:45:39 UTC
Permalink
On Sun, Dec 10, 2017 at 11:23 PM, Grizzly via ubuntu-users <
ubuntu-***@lists.ubuntu.com> wrote:

> 10 December 2017 at 20:41, Kevin O'Gorman wrote:
> Re: How to coordinate the clock whe (at least in part)
>
> >On Sun, Dec 10, 2017 at 12:59 PM, Grizzly via ubuntu-users <
> >ubuntu-***@lists.ubuntu.com> wrote:
> >
> >> 10 December 2017 at 15:52, Colin Law wrote:
> >> Re: How to coordinate the clock whe (at least in part)
> >>
> >> >On 10 December 2017 at 15:45, Liam Proven <***@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> >
> >> >> On 10 December 2017 at 10:42, Colin Law <***@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> >> >
> >> >> > The clock is not normally an issue when dual booting.
> >> >>
> >> >> It bally well is for me!
> >> >>
> >> >> E.g. if it's set to local time, both OSes move the system clock
> >> >> forward or backwards when daylight savings times begins or ends,
> >> >> resulting in a 2h discrepancy.
> >> >>
> >> >> My solution: minimize use of Windows. I boot it a couple of times a
> >> >> year, if that, normally.
> >> >>
> >> >
> >> >Interesting, I have never seen that. I assumed the system clock was in
> >> UTC,
> >> >and so would not change with DST. You may be right about that though,
> I
> >> >have no evidence either way. However I would have thought it would
> re-sync
> >> >the next time ntpdate or whatever it is that does the auto timesync
> ran.
>
> >> Its on a tab in date/time that not many people visit, default is off
>
> >> That's what I was hoping, but I cannot find anything about NTP in my
> >Windows 10.
>
> Must admit I was unsure if the same controls carry forward to later
> windoz, (I
> stopped at Win7) it looks like they do
>
> https://www.isunshare.com/windows-10/2-ways-to-change-
> date-and-time-on-windows-1
> 0.html
>
> only difference appears that you only see the internet time when you click
> "Change date time"
>
> here it (now) has a number of possible time server, IIRC it came with only
> two
> (unreliable), the rest I added later
>
> there is a reg entry
>
> [HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SOFTWARE\Microsoft\Windows\CurrentVersion\DateTime\
> Servers]
> @="3"
> "1"="time.windows.com"
> "2"="129.6.15.29"
> "3"="0.uk.pool.ntp.org"
> "4"="1.uk.pool.ntp.org"
> "6"="ntp2b.mcc.ac.uk"
> "5"="ntp2a.mcc.ac.uk"
> "7"="ntp2c.mcc.ac.uk"
> "8"="ntp2d.mcc.ac.uk"
> "9"="ntp.exnet.com"
>
> the chosen NTP server does propagate to other Reg entries
>
> but you can manually add direct in the dialogue if you don't want to delve
> in
> Registry
>
>
> This is interesting, but I'm uncertain how to use it. I found the list of
servers in the registry. I didn't put them there, but there are 5, and
number 5 appears as the default. It is time-b.nist.gov which I sure hope
is not unreliable. However, I still get Windows showing the time off by 8
hours when it boots up, and I'm supposing that's because it is using the
time in the BIOS DRAM, but I'm unsure because as near as I can tell the
BIOS is set to local time; at least that's what I see when I'm in BIOS
setup. Frankly I'm all confused.

It would be nice if Windows would use nist.gov and apply the timezone,
ignoring BIOS completely.

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Grizzly via ubuntu-users
2017-12-10 20:59:07 UTC
Permalink
10 December 2017 at 16:45, Liam Proven wrote:
Re: How to coordinate the clock whe (at least in part)

>On 10 December 2017 at 10:42, Colin Law <***@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> The clock is not normally an issue when dual booting.

>It bally well is for me!

>E.g. if it's set to local time, both OSes move the system clock
>forward or backwards when daylight savings times begins or ends,
>resulting in a 2h discrepancy.

Set the windows side to sync (third tab internet time) with the time server of
your choice, that way if/when you boot Wondowz it will check first? (or maybe
it will change then check then adjust, who can tell with windowz)

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Xen
2017-12-10 21:11:18 UTC
Permalink
Grizzly via ubuntu-users schreef op 10-12-2017 21:59:

> Set the windows side to sync (third tab internet time) with the time
> server of
> your choice, that way if/when you boot Wondowz it will check first? (or
> maybe
> it will change then check then adjust, who can tell with windowz)

It stupidly doesn't check on every boot.

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Grizzly via ubuntu-users
2017-12-10 23:59:41 UTC
Permalink
10 December 2017 at 22:11, Xen wrote:
Re: How to coordinate the clock whe (at least in part)

>Grizzly via ubuntu-users schreef op 10-12-2017 21:59:
>
>> Set the windows side to sync (third tab internet time) with the time
>> server of
>> your choice, that way if/when you boot Wondowz it will check first? (or
>> maybe
>> it will change then check then adjust, who can tell with windowz)

>It stupidly doesn't check on every boot.

Like I said "who can tell with windowz"

I have it set but still check with AtomTime when I just have to be "Sure" or
after setting time/date off for some reason

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Liam Proven
2017-12-10 23:44:11 UTC
Permalink
On 10 December 2017 at 21:59, Grizzly via ubuntu-users
<ubuntu-***@lists.ubuntu.com> wrote:
>
> Set the windows side to sync (third tab internet time) with the time server of
> your choice, that way if/when you boot Wondowz it will check first? (or maybe
> it will change then check then adjust, who can tell with windowz)

Would that it were so simple.

Windows won't sync with a timeserver if the skew is over a certain
(quite small) limit. It also readily gets confused due to poor
geolocation tech and either thinks it's in one timezone but the
machine is in a different one, or guesses one or both of these based
on poor geolocation and gets them wrong.

There are multiple things which go wrong.

So I run a 3rd party app:

NIStime32 -- http://appnee.com/nistime-32/

... and use it to sync manually to the NIS timeservers:

https://www.nist.gov/pml/time-and-frequency-division/services/internet-time-service-its

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Kevin O'Gorman
2017-12-11 04:46:12 UTC
Permalink
On Sun, Dec 10, 2017 at 12:59 PM, Grizzly via ubuntu-users <
ubuntu-***@lists.ubuntu.com> wrote:

> 10 December 2017 at 16:45, Liam Proven wrote:
> Re: How to coordinate the clock whe (at least in part)
>
> >On 10 December 2017 at 10:42, Colin Law <***@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> The clock is not normally an issue when dual booting.
>
> >It bally well is for me!
>
> >E.g. if it's set to local time, both OSes move the system clock
> >forward or backwards when daylight savings times begins or ends,
> >resulting in a 2h discrepancy.
>
> Set the windows side to sync (third tab internet time) with the time
> server of
> your choice, that way if/when you boot Wondowz it will check first? (or
> maybe
> it will change then check then adjust, who can tell with windowz)
>

I have no idea how to follow those instructions. I don't see tabs, for one
thing.
I'm running ordinary Win 10, looking in the Settings widget, sometimes
arrived at by right-clicking the date and time in the taskbar and clicking
"Adjust date and time".


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Kevin O'Gorman
2017-12-11 04:30:07 UTC
Permalink
On Sun, Dec 10, 2017 at 1:42 AM, Colin Law <***@gmail.com> wrote:

> On 9 December 2017 at 23:00, Kevin O'Gorman <***@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> I've installed Ubuntu into a Windows laptop. I missed the place where I
>> was supposed to tell the install that the clock will be kept in local time,
>> so switching between Linux and Windows is a pain.
>>
>
> The clock is not normally an issue when dual booting. Are you sure you
> have setup the timezone correctly in both environments? To check in Ubuntu
> run, in a terminal
> date
>

My Dell laptop running Xubuntu shows the correct time and time zone (PST)
The BIOS setup shows the same time (but does not know about time zones)
Windows 10 shows the correct time zone (UTC-8:00) but a time 8 hours
earlier, apparently UTC itself. If I un-set "set time automatically" I can
correct this, but I have to do it on each reboot. That's what I want to
avoid.



> and it will show the date/time and timezone. If it is wrong then you can
> run
> sudo dpkg-reconfigure tzdata
> to set it up. Don't know how to do that in Windows.
>
> Colin
>
>
>>
>
> --
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>


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Scott Blair
2017-12-10 15:34:47 UTC
Permalink
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Drew Einhorn
2017-12-11 21:07:52 UTC
Permalink
NTP is probably assuming system clock is UTC and correcting based on your time zone settings. This way ntp can assume all clocks are UTC and not have figure out all the relevant time zone corrections.

Does this make sense for your time zone?

Remote users can set their time zone environment variables for their local time zone. Things work out nicely on Unix or Linux based systems.

I don't know If there is a right way to configure Windows so it knows the hardware clock is UTC and the user time zone is different. If not, you have different issues depending on whether the hardware clock is UTC or local time. You may have to decide which issues are the bigger problem.

Windows may screw things up for spring and fall daylight savings adjustments, if Windows thinks the hardware is on local time when it's really on UTC.

If the latest updates are not installed, your systems may change to or from daylight savings on the wrong weekend. This can be an issue for all operating systems.

My daughter's alarm clock switched itself from daylight savings time to standard time on the wrong weekend this year. And, there is no way to update the rules for when to change.



On December 11, 2017, at 12:47 PM, Kevin O'Gorman <***@gmail.com> wrote:

On Sun, Dec 10, 2017 at 11:23 PM, Grizzly via ubuntu-users <ubuntu-***@lists.ubuntu.com> wrote:

10 December 2017  at 20:41, Kevin O'Gorman wrote:
Re: How to coordinate the clock whe (at least in part)

>On Sun, Dec 10, 2017 at 12:59 PM, Grizzly via ubuntu-users <
>ubuntu-***@lists.ubuntu.com> wrote:
>
>> 10 December 2017  at 15:52, Colin Law wrote:
>> Re: How to coordinate the clock whe (at least in part)
>>
>> >On 10 December 2017 at 15:45, Liam Proven <***@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >
>> >> On 10 December 2017 at 10:42, Colin Law <***@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >> >
>> >> > The clock is not normally an issue when dual booting.
>> >>
>> >> It bally well is for me!
>> >>
>> >> E.g. if it's set to local time, both OSes move the system clock
>> >> forward or backwards when daylight savings times begins or ends,
>> >> resulting in a 2h discrepancy.
>> >>
>> >> My solution: minimize use of Windows. I boot it a couple of times a
>> >> year, if that, normally.
>> >>
>> >
>> >Interesting, I have never seen that. I assumed the system clock was in
>> UTC,
>> >and so would not change with DST.  You may be right about that though, I
>> >have no evidence either way. However I would have thought it would re-sync
>> >the next time ntpdate or whatever it is that does the auto timesync ran.

>> Its on a tab in date/time that not many people visit, default is off

>> That's what I was hoping, but I cannot find anything about NTP in my
>Windows 10.

Must admit I was unsure if the same controls carry forward to later windoz, (I
stopped at Win7) it looks like they do

https://www.isunshare.com/windows-10/2-ways-to-change-date-and-time-on-windows-1
0.html

only difference appears that you only see the internet time when you click
"Change date time"

here it (now) has a number of possible time server, IIRC it came with only two
(unreliable), the rest I added later

there is a reg entry

[HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SOFTWARE\Microsoft\Windows\CurrentVersion\DateTime\Servers]
@="3"
"1"="time.windows.com"
"2"="129.6.15.29"
"3"="0.uk.pool.ntp.org"
"4"="1.uk.pool.ntp.org"
"6"="ntp2b.mcc.ac.uk"
"5"="ntp2a.mcc.ac.uk"
"7"="ntp2c.mcc.ac.uk"
"8"="ntp2d.mcc.ac.uk"
"9"="ntp.exnet.com"

the chosen NTP server does propagate to other Reg entries

but you can manually add direct in the dialogue if you don't want to delve in
Registry



This is interesting, but I'm uncertain how to use it.  I found the list of servers in the registry.  I didn't put them there, but there are 5, and number 5 appears as the default.  It is time-b.nist.gov which I sure hope is not unreliable.  However, I still get Windows showing the time off by 8 hours when it boots up, and I'm supposing that's because it is using the time in the BIOS DRAM, but I'm unsure because as near as I can tell the BIOS is set to local time; at least that's what I see when I'm in BIOS setup.  Frankly I'm all confused.


It would be nice if Windows would use nist.gov and apply the timezone, ignoring BIOS completely.


--

Kevin O'Gorman

#define QUESTION ((bb) || (!bb))   /* Shakespeare */

ï¿ŒPlease consider the environment before printing this email.
Kevin O'Gorman
2017-12-11 22:48:53 UTC
Permalink
On Mon, Dec 11, 2017 at 1:07 PM, Drew Einhorn <***@gmail.com>
wrote:

> This is interesting, but I'm uncertain how to use it. I found the list of
> servers in the registry. I didn't put them there, but there are 5, and
> number 5 appears as the default. It is time-b.nist.gov which I sure hope
> is not unreliable. However, I still get Windows showing the time off by 8
> hours when it boots up, and I'm supposing that's because it is using the
> time in the BIOS DRAM, but I'm unsure because as near as I can tell the
> BIOS is set to local time; at least that's what I see when I'm in BIOS
> setup. Frankly I'm all confused.
>
> It would be nice if Windows would use nist.gov and apply the timezone,
> ignoring BIOS completely.
>
> --
> Kevin O'Gorman
> #define QUESTION ((bb) || (!bb)) /* Shakespeare */
>
> Please consider the environment before printing this email.
>
> NTP is probably assuming system clock is UTC and correcting based on your
> time zone settings. This way ntp can assume all clocks are UTC and not have
> figure out all the relevant time zone corrections.
>
> Does this make sense for your time zone?
>
> Remote users can set their time zone environment variables for their local
> time zone. Things work out nicely on Unix or Linux based systems.
>
> I don't know If there is a right way to configure Windows so it knows the
> hardware clock is UTC and the user time zone is different. If not, you have
> different issues depending on whether the hardware clock is UTC or local
> time. You may have to decide which issues are the bigger problem.
>
> Windows may screw things up for spring and fall daylight savings
> adjustments, if Windows thinks the hardware is on local time when it's
> really on UTC.
>
> If the latest updates are not installed, your systems may change to or
> from daylight savings on the wrong weekend. This can be an issue for all
> operating systems.
>
> My daughter's alarm clock switched itself from daylight savings time to
> standard time on the wrong weekend this year. And, there is no way to
> update the rules for when to change.
>

I reorganized this reply. Please bottom-post on the list.

What you say sounds good, but it's a bit confusing to me. Both Windows and
Linux are NTP-capable, so when you write "NTP is ...." you don't say which
one you mean. But I take it you're writing about Linux NTP, and what you
wrote agrees with what I think I knew about Linux. I am not aware of a way
to configure Windows to do what Linux does, but there's been some talk
about making Linux do what Windows does instead. I thought I had done it
but it didn't work, and now I have a situation I don't understand at all.
Follow along with me....

I'm running Linux and Linux thinks it's 2 PM on Dec 11 PST. Which it is.
I reboot and enter BIOS setup. BIOS thinks it's 2 PM on Dec 11, which it
still is in this time zone but AFAIK BIOS has no concept of time zones.
Maybe my fix worked and linux is storing local time. But wait, let's check.
I boot into Windows. Windows thinks it's 6 AM on Dec 11, which is 8 hours
off. I didn't think Windows could do that, as I wrote above.
So I fix it. Windows now thinks it's 2 PM on Dec 11. I reboot.
In BIOS, the time is 22:xx (10 PM). off by 8 hours. So Windows changed the
BIOS time either when I changed the time or when it shut down, or both, and
set it to UTC based on Windows' knowledge that we're in the UTC-8:00 zone.
Linux comes up and thinks it's 2 PM on Dec 11 PST. Which it is. But this
is weird. I was expecting it to accept the BIOS time of 10 PM as being
local time.

On a hunch, I ran ntpdate, and here's a new piece of the puzzle:
11 Dec 14:37:01 ntpdate[6074]: no servers can be used, exiting

So now I think I should be configuring NTP.

/etc/ntp.conf contains a few lines that look like NTP servers. They must
have come with the distro:
# Use servers from the NTP Pool Project. Approved by Ubuntu Technical Board
# on 2011-02-08 (LP: #104525). See http://www.pool.ntp.org/join.html for
# more information.
pool 0.ubuntu.pool.ntp.org iburst
pool 1.ubuntu.pool.ntp.org iburst
pool 2.ubuntu.pool.ntp.org iburst
pool 3.ubuntu.pool.ntp.org iburst

# Use Ubuntu's ntp server as a fallback.
pool ntp.ubuntu.com

So why are no servers usable? Is it possible my router is blocking NTP?
Is it possible the standard config file is bad? This is Ubuntu 16.04.3.

Clues, anyone?

--
Kevin O'Gorman
#define QUESTION ((bb) || (!bb)) /* Shakespeare */

Please consider the environment before printing this email.
Duane Whitty
2017-12-11 23:15:42 UTC
Permalink
On 17-12-11 06:48 PM, Kevin O'Gorman wrote:
> On Mon, Dec 11, 2017 at 1:07 PM, Drew Einhorn <***@gmail.com
> <mailto:***@gmail.com>> wrote:
>
> This is interesting, but I'm uncertain how to use it.  I found the
> list of servers in the registry.  I didn't put them there, but there
> are 5, and number 5 appears as the default.  It is time-b.nist.gov
> <http://time-b.nist.gov> which I sure hope is not unreliable. 
> However, I still get Windows showing the time off by 8 hours when it
> boots up, and I'm supposing that's because it is using the time in
> the BIOS DRAM, but I'm unsure because as near as I can tell the BIOS
> is set to local time; at least that's what I see when I'm in BIOS
> setup.  Frankly I'm all confused.
>
> It would be nice if Windows would use nist.gov <http://nist.gov> and
> apply the timezone, ignoring BIOS completely.
>
> --
> Kevin O'Gorman
> #define QUESTION ((bb) || (!bb))   /* Shakespeare */
>
> Please consider the environment before printing this email.
>
>
> NTP is probably assuming system clock is UTC and correcting based on
> your time zone settings. This way ntp can assume all clocks are UTC
> and not have figure out all the relevant time zone corrections.
>
> Does this make sense for your time zone?
>
> Remote users can set their time zone environment variables for their
> local time zone. Things work out nicely on Unix or Linux based systems.
>
> I don't know If there is a right way to configure Windows so it
> knows the hardware clock is UTC and the user time zone is different.
> If not, you have different issues depending on whether the hardware
> clock is UTC or local time. You may have to decide which issues are
> the bigger problem.
>
> Windows may screw things up for spring and fall daylight savings
> adjustments, if Windows thinks the hardware is on local time when
> it's really on UTC.
>
> If the latest updates are not installed, your systems may change to
> or from daylight savings on the wrong weekend. This can be an issue
> for all operating systems.
>
> My daughter's alarm clock switched itself from daylight savings time
> to standard time on the wrong weekend this year. And, there is no
> way to update the rules for when to change.
>
>
> I reorganized this reply.  Please bottom-post on the list.
>
> What you say sounds good, but it's a bit confusing to me.  Both Windows
> and Linux are NTP-capable, so when you write "NTP is ...." you don't say
> which one you mean.  But I take it you're writing about Linux NTP, and
> what you wrote agrees with what I think I knew about Linux.  I am not
> aware of a way to configure Windows to do what Linux does, but there's
> been some talk about making Linux do what Windows does instead.  I
> thought I had done it but it didn't work, and now I have a situation I
> don't understand at all.  Follow along with me....
>
> I'm running Linux and Linux thinks it's 2 PM on Dec 11 PST.  Which it is.
> I reboot and enter BIOS setup.  BIOS thinks it's 2 PM on Dec 11, which
> it still is in this time zone but AFAIK BIOS has no concept of time
> zones.  Maybe my fix worked and linux is storing local time.  But wait,
> let's check.
> I boot into Windows.  Windows thinks it's 6 AM on Dec 11, which is 8
> hours off.  I didn't think Windows could do that, as I wrote above.
> So I fix it.  Windows now thinks it's 2 PM on Dec 11.  I reboot.
> In BIOS, the time is 22:xx (10 PM). off by 8 hours.  So Windows changed
> the BIOS time either when I changed the time or when it shut down, or
> both, and set it to UTC based on Windows' knowledge that we're in the
> UTC-8:00 zone.
> Linux comes up and thinks it's 2 PM on Dec 11 PST.  Which it is.  But
> this is weird.  I was expecting it to accept the BIOS time of 10 PM as
> being local time.
>
> On a hunch, I ran ntpdate, and here's a new piece of the puzzle:
> 11 Dec 14:37:01 ntpdate[6074]: no servers can be used, exiting
>
> So now I think I should be configuring NTP.
>
> /etc/ntp.conf contains a few lines that look like NTP servers.  They
> must have come with the distro:
> # Use servers from the NTP Pool Project. Approved by Ubuntu Technical Board
> # on 2011-02-08 (LP: #104525). See http://www.pool.ntp.org/join.html for
> # more information.
> pool 0.ubuntu.pool.ntp.org <http://0.ubuntu.pool.ntp.org> iburst
> pool 1.ubuntu.pool.ntp.org <http://1.ubuntu.pool.ntp.org> iburst
> pool 2.ubuntu.pool.ntp.org <http://2.ubuntu.pool.ntp.org> iburst
> pool 3.ubuntu.pool.ntp.org <http://3.ubuntu.pool.ntp.org> iburst
>
> # Use Ubuntu's ntp server as a fallback.
> pool ntp.ubuntu.com <http://ntp.ubuntu.com>
>
> So why are no servers usable?  Is it possible my router is blocking
> NTP?  Is it possible the standard config file is bad?  This is Ubuntu
> 16.04.3.
>
> Clues, anyone?
>
> --
> Kevin O'Gorman
> #define QUESTION ((bb) || (!bb))   /* Shakespeare */
>
> Please consider the environment before printing this email.
>
>
>
>
I'm pretty sure Windows has ever only supported setting the hardware
clock to local time. Also, doesn't Microsoft run some time servers that
Windows systems should use? If so I wouldn't connect to NTP servers
that expect UTC.

Could hwclock (8) work? I.e., manually set the bios/hardware clock to
local time which Windows uses/expects and use #hwclock -w to set the
system time from the hardware time on your Linux system.

Best Regards,
Duane

--
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***@nofroth.com

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Xen
2017-12-11 23:22:22 UTC
Permalink
Kevin O'Gorman schreef op 11-12-2017 23:48:

> Linux comes up and thinks it's 2 PM on Dec 11 PST. Which it is. But
> this is weird. I was expecting it to accept the BIOS time of 10 PM as
> being local time.

> So why are no servers usable? Is it possible my router is blocking
> NTP? Is it possible the standard config file is bad? This is Ubuntu
> 16.04.3.
>
> Clues, anyone?

Could be that systemd-timesyncd works fine and you see 2 PM because your
box has already synced the time.

So you will have to check for these messages:

systemd-timesyncd[1718]: Synchronized to time server 91.189.89.199:123
(ntp.ubuntu.com).

Before you can be sure about that.

Other than that, I suppose you did check:

timedatectl

RTC in local TZ: yes


But here is a weird thing on my system....

Local time: di 2017-12-12 00:17:36 CET
Universal time: ma 2017-12-11 23:17:36 UTC
RTC time: ma 2017-12-11 23:17:41
Time zone: Europe/Amsterdam (CET, +0100)
Network time on: yes
NTP synchronized: no
RTC in local TZ: yes

How can the RTC be UTC when it is set to the local TZ?

But anyway I have no issues with Windows now.

For me it works.

I don't know about my BIOS.

But your BIOS behaves as if it does know the timezone...

After all, if everyone used UTC that means all BIOSes would now display
the wrong time...

So I would first doublecheck that the above setting is correct.

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Kevin O'Gorman
2017-12-11 23:48:25 UTC
Permalink
On Mon, Dec 11, 2017 at 3:22 PM, Xen <***@xenhideout.nl> wrote:

> Kevin O'Gorman schreef op 11-12-2017 23:48:
>
> Linux comes up and thinks it's 2 PM on Dec 11 PST. Which it is. But this
>> is weird. I was expecting it to accept the BIOS time of 10 PM as being
>> local time.
>>
>
> So why are no servers usable? Is it possible my router is blocking NTP?
>> Is it possible the standard config file is bad? This is Ubuntu 16.04.3.
>>
>> Clues, anyone?
>>
>
> Could be that systemd-timesyncd works fine and you see 2 PM because your
> box has already synced the time.
>
> So you will have to check for these messages:
>
> systemd-timesyncd[1718]: Synchronized to time server 91.189.89.199:123 (
> ntp.ubuntu.com).
>
> Before you can be sure about that.
>
> Other than that, I suppose you did check:
>
> timedatectl
>
> RTC in local TZ: yes
>
>
> Yes, here's what I see

$ timedatectl
Local time: Mon 2017-12-11 15:39:13 PST
Universal time: Mon 2017-12-11 23:39:13 UTC
RTC time: Mon 2017-12-11 15:39:13
Time zone: America/Los_Angeles (PST, -0800)
Network time on: yes
NTP synchronized: yes
RTC in local TZ: yes

Warning: The system is configured to read the RTC time in the local time
zone.
This mode can not be fully supported. It will create various
problems
with time zone changes and daylight saving time adjustments. The
RTC
time is never updated, it relies on external facilities to
maintain it.
If at all possible, use RTC in UTC by calling
'timedatectl set-local-rtc 0'.'
$


So mine is not working and yours is. But neither one of us is seeing the
details we expect for the behavior our systems have. That suggests that
our understanding is wrong.

--
Kevin O'Gorman
#define QUESTION ((bb) || (!bb)) /* Shakespeare */

Please consider the environment before printing this email.
Xen
2017-12-12 00:39:22 UTC
Permalink
Kevin O'Gorman schreef op 12-12-2017 0:48:

> So mine is not working and yours is. But neither one of us is seeing
> the details we expect for the behavior our systems have. That suggests
> that our understanding is wrong.

So what kind of BIOS do you have? Does it have any time options?

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Kevin O'Gorman
2017-12-12 00:57:24 UTC
Permalink
On Mon, Dec 11, 2017 at 4:39 PM, Xen <***@xenhideout.nl> wrote:

> Kevin O'Gorman schreef op 12-12-2017 0:48:
>
> So mine is not working and yours is. But neither one of us is seeing the
>> details we expect for the behavior our systems have. That suggests that
>> our understanding is wrong.
>>
>
> So what kind of BIOS do you have? Does it have any time options?
>
>
This laptop is a Dell Inspiron 17 (5000 Series) according to a sticker that
came with it.

The part of the BIOS that allows me to change data and time does not allow
anything else.

>
> --
> ubuntu-users mailing list
> ubuntu-***@lists.ubuntu.com
> Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailm
> an/listinfo/ubuntu-users
>



--
Kevin O'Gorman
#define QUESTION ((bb) || (!bb)) /* Shakespeare */

Please consider the environment before printing this email.
Kevin O'Gorman
2017-12-12 01:04:29 UTC
Permalink
On Mon, Dec 11, 2017 at 4:57 PM, Kevin O'Gorman <***@gmail.com> wrote:

>
>
> On Mon, Dec 11, 2017 at 4:39 PM, Xen <***@xenhideout.nl> wrote:
>
>> Kevin O'Gorman schreef op 12-12-2017 0:48:
>>
>> So mine is not working and yours is. But neither one of us is seeing the
>>> details we expect for the behavior our systems have. That suggests that
>>> our understanding is wrong.
>>>
>>
>> So what kind of BIOS do you have? Does it have any time options?
>>
>>
> This laptop is a Dell Inspiron 17 (5000 Series) according to a sticker
> that came with it.
>
> The part of the BIOS that allows me to change data and time does not allow
> anything else.
>
>>
>>
>> And Dell's support site exands the "service tag" to say it's an Inspiron
5749


--
Kevin O'Gorman
#define QUESTION ((bb) || (!bb)) /* Shakespeare */

Please consider the environment before printing this email.
Xen
2017-12-12 12:53:28 UTC
Permalink
Kevin O'Gorman schreef op 12-12-2017 2:04:

> So mine is not working and yours is.

Ehm, mine isn't working either.

I hadn't actually checked very well lately, this is a new Kubuntu
16.04.3 install and previously I had an older install running 4.4.

In which everything worked fine, I mean.

So I can lend you the following observations:

- If I reboot from Linux to Windows the time is off by one hour.
- If I set the time correct in Windows and reboot to Windows the time is
correct even with no sync.
- If I reboot from Linux to Windows and do not set the time, and then
reboot back to Linux, the time is 1 hour early.

So Windows -> Linux works fine, Linux -> Windows is off.

I would have to verify more I guess.

I am going to check now what happens if I don't shut down. But instant
mayhem :).

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Xen
2017-12-12 13:14:16 UTC
Permalink
Xen schreef op 12-12-2017 13:53:

> I am going to check now what happens if I don't shut down. But instant
> mayhem :).

AND.... the problem is gone when I shut down without telling Linux
first.

So for me the problem is created when Linux does its shutdown sequence.

It possibly thinks it has to restore the clock to something else?

I would have to check my shutdown log but there is usually not a lot in
it I think.

So as far as I can say the problem has to do with one of the services
getting STOPPED.

This service (for me) resets the time to UTC.

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Kevin O'Gorman
2017-12-12 21:14:19 UTC
Permalink
Between Xen and J. L. it looks like I may be getting some useful help.
Following the lead in J.L.'s post, I looked at
http://kb.norsetech.net/set-windows-clock-to-utc-time/ and discovered that
-- contrary to what I had believed -- not only can Win 10 be set to work
with UTC in the BIOS, my copy is already set that way. So it didn't just
look like it was. It really was. That helps me understand the evidence I
had gathered.

By the way, it is not explained in that article, but that utc.reg is in the
format of an export from "regedit" the Windows registry editor. I didn't
use it but you may be able to just import it directly.

Meanwhile, I'm off to reverse the change I made to Linux and gather new
evidence.
--
Kevin O'Gorman
#define QUESTION ((bb) || (!bb)) /* Shakespeare */

Please consider the environment before printing this email.
Kevin O'Gorman
2017-12-11 23:35:53 UTC
Permalink
On Mon, Dec 11, 2017 at 2:48 PM, Kevin O'Gorman <***@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Mon, Dec 11, 2017 at 1:07 PM, Drew Einhorn <***@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> This is interesting, but I'm uncertain how to use it. I found the list
>> of servers in the registry. I didn't put them there, but there are 5, and
>> number 5 appears as the default. It is time-b.nist.gov which I sure
>> hope is not unreliable. However, I still get Windows showing the time off
>> by 8 hours when it boots up, and I'm supposing that's because it is using
>> the time in the BIOS DRAM, but I'm unsure because as near as I can tell the
>> BIOS is set to local time; at least that's what I see when I'm in BIOS
>> setup. Frankly I'm all confused.
>>
>> It would be nice if Windows would use nist.gov and apply the timezone,
>> ignoring BIOS completely.
>>
>> --
>> Kevin O'Gorman
>> #define QUESTION ((bb) || (!bb)) /* Shakespeare */
>>
>> Please consider the environment before printing this email.
>>
>> NTP is probably assuming system clock is UTC and correcting based on your
>> time zone settings. This way ntp can assume all clocks are UTC and not have
>> figure out all the relevant time zone corrections.
>>
>> Does this make sense for your time zone?
>>
>> Remote users can set their time zone environment variables for their
>> local time zone. Things work out nicely on Unix or Linux based systems.
>>
>> I don't know If there is a right way to configure Windows so it knows the
>> hardware clock is UTC and the user time zone is different. If not, you have
>> different issues depending on whether the hardware clock is UTC or local
>> time. You may have to decide which issues are the bigger problem.
>>
>> Windows may screw things up for spring and fall daylight savings
>> adjustments, if Windows thinks the hardware is on local time when it's
>> really on UTC.
>>
>> If the latest updates are not installed, your systems may change to or
>> from daylight savings on the wrong weekend. This can be an issue for all
>> operating systems.
>>
>> My daughter's alarm clock switched itself from daylight savings time to
>> standard time on the wrong weekend this year. And, there is no way to
>> update the rules for when to change.
>>
>
> I reorganized this reply. Please bottom-post on the list.
>
> What you say sounds good, but it's a bit confusing to me. Both Windows
> and Linux are NTP-capable, so when you write "NTP is ...." you don't say
> which one you mean. But I take it you're writing about Linux NTP, and what
> you wrote agrees with what I think I knew about Linux. I am not aware of a
> way to configure Windows to do what Linux does, but there's been some talk
> about making Linux do what Windows does instead. I thought I had done it
> but it didn't work, and now I have a situation I don't understand at all.
> Follow along with me....
>
> I'm running Linux and Linux thinks it's 2 PM on Dec 11 PST. Which it is.
> I reboot and enter BIOS setup. BIOS thinks it's 2 PM on Dec 11, which it
> still is in this time zone but AFAIK BIOS has no concept of time zones.
> Maybe my fix worked and linux is storing local time. But wait, let's check.
> I boot into Windows. Windows thinks it's 6 AM on Dec 11, which is 8 hours
> off. I didn't think Windows could do that, as I wrote above.
> So I fix it. Windows now thinks it's 2 PM on Dec 11. I reboot.
> In BIOS, the time is 22:xx (10 PM). off by 8 hours. So Windows changed
> the BIOS time either when I changed the time or when it shut down, or both,
> and set it to UTC based on Windows' knowledge that we're in the UTC-8:00
> zone.
> Linux comes up and thinks it's 2 PM on Dec 11 PST. Which it is. But this
> is weird. I was expecting it to accept the BIOS time of 10 PM as being
> local time.
>
> On a hunch, I ran ntpdate, and here's a new piece of the puzzle:
> 11 Dec 14:37:01 ntpdate[6074]: no servers can be used, exiting
>
> So now I think I should be configuring NTP.
>
> /etc/ntp.conf contains a few lines that look like NTP servers. They must
> have come with the distro:
> # Use servers from the NTP Pool Project. Approved by Ubuntu Technical Board
> # on 2011-02-08 (LP: #104525). See http://www.pool.ntp.org/join.html for
> # more information.
> pool 0.ubuntu.pool.ntp.org iburst
> pool 1.ubuntu.pool.ntp.org iburst
> pool 2.ubuntu.pool.ntp.org iburst
> pool 3.ubuntu.pool.ntp.org iburst
>
> # Use Ubuntu's ntp server as a fallback.
> pool ntp.ubuntu.com
>
> So why are no servers usable? Is it possible my router is blocking NTP?
> Is it possible the standard config file is bad? This is Ubuntu 16.04.3.
>
> Clues, anyone?
>
>
> Hmm. It's not quite as bad as i though, but it's still every bit as
confusing. Reaching back in my memory I came up with:

$ ntpq -p
remote refid st t when poll reach delay offset
jitter
==============================================================================
0.ubuntu.pool.n .POOL. 16 p - 64 0 0.000 0.000
0.000
1.ubuntu.pool.n .POOL. 16 p - 64 0 0.000 0.000
0.000
2.ubuntu.pool.n .POOL. 16 p - 64 0 0.000 0.000
0.000
3.ubuntu.pool.n .POOL. 16 p - 64 0 0.000 0.000
0.000
ntp.ubuntu.com .POOL. 16 p - 64 0 0.000 0.000
0.000
-104.131.155.175 171.66.97.126 2 u 693 1024 377 19.169 -0.267
3.126
*ntp.your.org .CDMA. 1 u 118 1024 377 73.945 1.636
2.191
+chl.la 127.67.113.92 2 u 1336 1024 376 22.897 3.010
2.547
+time.tritn.com 198.60.22.240 3 u 158 1024 377 21.207 5.454
2.769
-pacific.latt.ne 199.233.236.226 3 u 923 1024 377 11.997 1.665
3.041
$

So NTP is working okay (although the ubuntu pool may not be,) but ntpdate
is not. I wonder why?

--
Kevin O'Gorman
#define QUESTION ((bb) || (!bb)) /* Shakespeare */

Please consider the environment before printing this email.
J. L.
2017-12-12 02:41:16 UTC
Permalink
On 11.12.2017 22:07, Drew Einhorn wrote:
> NTP is probably assuming system clock is UTC and correcting based on
> your time zone settings. This way ntp can assume all clocks are UTC and
> not have figure out all the relevant time zone corrections.
>
> Does this make sense for your time zone?
>
> Remote users can set their time zone environment variables for their
> local time zone. Things work out nicely on Unix or Linux based systems.
>
> I don't know If there is a right way to configure Windows so it knows
> the hardware clock is UTC and the user time zone is different. If not,
> you have different issues depending on whether the hardware clock is UTC
> or local time. You may have to decide which issues are the bigger problem.
>
> Windows may screw things up for spring and fall daylight savings
> adjustments, if Windows thinks the hardware is on local time when it's
> really on UTC.
>
> If the latest updates are not installed, your systems may change to or
> from daylight savings on the wrong weekend. This can be an issue for all
> operating systems.
>
> My daughter's alarm clock switched itself from daylight savings time to
> standard time on the wrong weekend this year. And, there is no way to
> update the rules for when to change.
>
>
>
> On December 11, 2017, at 12:47 PM, Kevin O'Gorman <***@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>
> On Sun, Dec 10, 2017 at 11:23 PM, Grizzly via ubuntu-users
> <ubuntu-***@lists.ubuntu.com <mailto:ubuntu-***@lists.ubuntu.com>>
> wrote:
>
> 10 December 2017 at 20:41, Kevin O'Gorman wrote:
> Re: How to coordinate the clock whe (at least in part)
>
> >On Sun, Dec 10, 2017 at 12:59 PM, Grizzly via ubuntu-users <
> >ubuntu-***@lists.ubuntu.com
> <mailto:ubuntu-***@lists.ubuntu.com>> wrote:
> >
> >> 10 December 2017 at 15:52, Colin Law wrote:
> >> Re: How to coordinate the clock whe (at least in part)
> >>
> >> >On 10 December 2017 at 15:45, Liam Proven <***@gmail.com <mailto:***@gmail.com>> wrote:
> >> >
> >> >> On 10 December 2017 at 10:42, Colin Law <***@gmail.com <mailto:***@gmail.com>> wrote:
> >> >> >
> >> >> > The clock is not normally an issue when dual booting.
> >> >>
> >> >> It bally well is for me!
> >> >>
> >> >> E.g. if it's set to local time, both OSes move the system clock
> >> >> forward or backwards when daylight savings times begins or ends,
> >> >> resulting in a 2h discrepancy.
> >> >>
> >> >> My solution: minimize use of Windows. I boot it a couple of times a
> >> >> year, if that, normally.
> >> >>
> >> >
> >> >Interesting, I have never seen that. I assumed the system clock was in
> >> UTC,
> >> >and so would not change with DST. You may be right about that though, I
> >> >have no evidence either way. However I would have thought it would re-sync
> >> >the next time ntpdate or whatever it is that does the auto timesync ran.
>
> >> Its on a tab in date/time that not many people visit, default is off
>
> >> That's what I was hoping, but I cannot find anything about NTP in my
> >Windows 10.
>
> Must admit I was unsure if the same controls carry forward to later
> windoz, (I
> stopped at Win7) it looks like they do
>
> https://www.isunshare.com/windows-10/2-ways-to-change-date-and-time-on-windows-1
> 0.html
> <https://www.isunshare.com/windows-10/2-ways-to-change-date-and-time-on-windows-1%0A0.html>
>
> only difference appears that you only see the internet time when you
> click
> "Change date time"
>
> here it (now) has a number of possible time server, IIRC it came
> with only two
> (unreliable), the rest I added later
>
> there is a reg entry
>
> [HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SOFTWARE\Microsoft\Windows\CurrentVersion\DateTime\Servers]
> @="3"
> "1"="time.windows.com <http://time.windows.com>"
> "2"="129.6.15.29 <http://129.6.15.29>"
> "3"="0.uk.pool.ntp.org <http://0.uk.pool.ntp.org>"
> "4"="1.uk.pool.ntp.org <http://1.uk.pool.ntp.org>"
> "6"="ntp2b.mcc.ac.uk <http://ntp2b.mcc.ac.uk>"
> "5"="ntp2a.mcc.ac.uk <http://ntp2a.mcc.ac.uk>"
> "7"="ntp2c.mcc.ac.uk <http://ntp2c.mcc.ac.uk>"
> "8"="ntp2d.mcc.ac.uk <http://ntp2d.mcc.ac.uk>"
> "9"="ntp.exnet.com <http://ntp.exnet.com>"
>
> the chosen NTP server does propagate to other Reg entries
>
> but you can manually add direct in the dialogue if you don't want to
> delve in
> Registry
>
>
> This is interesting, but I'm uncertain how to use it. I found the list
> of servers in the registry. I didn't put them there, but there are 5,
> and number 5 appears as the default. It is time-b.nist.gov
> <http://time-b.nist.gov> which I sure hope is not unreliable. However,
> I still get Windows showing the time off by 8 hours when it boots up,
> and I'm supposing that's because it is using the time in the BIOS DRAM,
> but I'm unsure because as near as I can tell the BIOS is set to local
> time; at least that's what I see when I'm in BIOS setup. Frankly I'm
> all confused.
>
> It would be nice if Windows would use nist.gov <http://nist.gov> and
> apply the timezone, ignoring BIOS completely.
>
> --
> Kevin O'Gorman
> #define QUESTION ((bb) || (!bb)) /* Shakespeare */
>
> Please consider the environment before printing this email.


Hi!

Could it be that You did not even think of trying to use a search engine
for your problem?

So, i'm a nice guy and did just one little search [coordinate time dual
boot system windows linux] and will paste You _some_ not even all of the
links i found obviously quite fitting to Your question:

http://ubuntuhandbook.org/index.php/2016/05/time-differences-ubuntu-1604-windows-10/

https://askubuntu.com/questions/800914/clock-shows-wrong-time-after-switching-from-ubuntu-to-windows-10

https://askubuntu.com/questions/169376/clock-time-is-off-on-dual-boot

http://www.webupd8.org/2014/09/dual-boot-fix-time-differences-between.html

https://www.ghacks.net/2017/07/30/fixing-incorrect-clock-time-settings-while-dual-booting-windowslinux/

https://lifehacker.com/5742148/fix-windows-clock-issues-when-dual-booting-with-os-x

https://www.howtogeek.com/211144/how-to-get-windows-and-linux-clocks-to-display-the-correct-and-matching-time-dual-boot/

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gqre5fRo704

https://techlr.de/dual-boot-windows-10-und-linux-falsche-uhrzeit/


I'm pretty sure the information You asked for is hidden somewhere in
these links ...! ;-)

Hope i did You a little favor!

Good luck!

J. L.

--
ubuntu-users mailing list
ubuntu-***@lists.ubuntu.com
Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mail
Kevin O'Gorman
2017-12-12 04:35:56 UTC
Permalink
On Mon, Dec 11, 2017 at 6:41 PM, J. L. <***@gmx.net> wrote:

> On 11.12.2017 22:07, Drew Einhorn wrote:
> > NTP is probably assuming system clock is UTC and correcting based on
> > your time zone settings. This way ntp can assume all clocks are UTC and
> > not have figure out all the relevant time zone corrections.
> >
> > Does this make sense for your time zone?
> >
> > Remote users can set their time zone environment variables for their
> > local time zone. Things work out nicely on Unix or Linux based systems.
> >
> > I don't know If there is a right way to configure Windows so it knows
> > the hardware clock is UTC and the user time zone is different. If not,
> > you have different issues depending on whether the hardware clock is UTC
> > or local time. You may have to decide which issues are the bigger
> problem.
> >
> > Windows may screw things up for spring and fall daylight savings
> > adjustments, if Windows thinks the hardware is on local time when it's
> > really on UTC.
> >
> > If the latest updates are not installed, your systems may change to or
> > from daylight savings on the wrong weekend. This can be an issue for all
> > operating systems.
> >
> > My daughter's alarm clock switched itself from daylight savings time to
> > standard time on the wrong weekend this year. And, there is no way to
> > update the rules for when to change.
> >
> >
> >
> > On December 11, 2017, at 12:47 PM, Kevin O'Gorman <***@gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> >
> >
> > On Sun, Dec 10, 2017 at 11:23 PM, Grizzly via ubuntu-users
> > <ubuntu-***@lists.ubuntu.com <mailto:ubuntu-***@lists.ubuntu.com>>
> > wrote:
> >
> > 10 December 2017 at 20:41, Kevin O'Gorman wrote:
> > Re: How to coordinate the clock whe (at least in part)
> >
> > >On Sun, Dec 10, 2017 at 12:59 PM, Grizzly via ubuntu-users <
> > >ubuntu-***@lists.ubuntu.com
> > <mailto:ubuntu-***@lists.ubuntu.com>> wrote:
> > >
> > >> 10 December 2017 at 15:52, Colin Law wrote:
> > >> Re: How to coordinate the clock whe (at least in part)
> > >>
> > >> >On 10 December 2017 at 15:45, Liam Proven <***@gmail.com
> <mailto:***@gmail.com>> wrote:
> > >> >
> > >> >> On 10 December 2017 at 10:42, Colin Law <***@gmail.com
> <mailto:***@gmail.com>> wrote:
> > >> >> >
> > >> >> > The clock is not normally an issue when dual booting.
> > >> >>
> > >> >> It bally well is for me!
> > >> >>
> > >> >> E.g. if it's set to local time, both OSes move the system clock
> > >> >> forward or backwards when daylight savings times begins or
> ends,
> > >> >> resulting in a 2h discrepancy.
> > >> >>
> > >> >> My solution: minimize use of Windows. I boot it a couple of
> times a
> > >> >> year, if that, normally.
> > >> >>
> > >> >
> > >> >Interesting, I have never seen that. I assumed the system clock
> was in
> > >> UTC,
> > >> >and so would not change with DST. You may be right about that
> though, I
> > >> >have no evidence either way. However I would have thought it
> would re-sync
> > >> >the next time ntpdate or whatever it is that does the auto
> timesync ran.
> >
> > >> Its on a tab in date/time that not many people visit, default is
> off
> >
> > >> That's what I was hoping, but I cannot find anything about NTP in
> my
> > >Windows 10.
> >
> > Must admit I was unsure if the same controls carry forward to later
> > windoz, (I
> > stopped at Win7) it looks like they do
> >
> > https://www.isunshare.com/windows-10/2-ways-to-change-
> date-and-time-on-windows-1
> > 0.html
> > <https://www.isunshare.com/windows-10/2-ways-to-change-
> date-and-time-on-windows-1%0A0.html>
> >
> > only difference appears that you only see the internet time when you
> > click
> > "Change date time"
> >
> > here it (now) has a number of possible time server, IIRC it came
> > with only two
> > (unreliable), the rest I added later
> >
> > there is a reg entry
> >
> > [HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SOFTWARE\Microsoft\Windows\
> CurrentVersion\DateTime\Servers]
> > @="3"
> > "1"="time.windows.com <http://time.windows.com>"
> > "2"="129.6.15.29 <http://129.6.15.29>"
> > "3"="0.uk.pool.ntp.org <http://0.uk.pool.ntp.org>"
> > "4"="1.uk.pool.ntp.org <http://1.uk.pool.ntp.org>"
> > "6"="ntp2b.mcc.ac.uk <http://ntp2b.mcc.ac.uk>"
> > "5"="ntp2a.mcc.ac.uk <http://ntp2a.mcc.ac.uk>"
> > "7"="ntp2c.mcc.ac.uk <http://ntp2c.mcc.ac.uk>"
> > "8"="ntp2d.mcc.ac.uk <http://ntp2d.mcc.ac.uk>"
> > "9"="ntp.exnet.com <http://ntp.exnet.com>"
> >
> > the chosen NTP server does propagate to other Reg entries
> >
> > but you can manually add direct in the dialogue if you don't want to
> > delve in
> > Registry
> >
> >
> > This is interesting, but I'm uncertain how to use it. I found the list
> > of servers in the registry. I didn't put them there, but there are 5,
> > and number 5 appears as the default. It is time-b.nist.gov
> > <http://time-b.nist.gov> which I sure hope is not unreliable. However,
> > I still get Windows showing the time off by 8 hours when it boots up,
> > and I'm supposing that's because it is using the time in the BIOS DRAM,
> > but I'm unsure because as near as I can tell the BIOS is set to local
> > time; at least that's what I see when I'm in BIOS setup. Frankly I'm
> > all confused.
> >
> > It would be nice if Windows would use nist.gov <http://nist.gov> and
> > apply the timezone, ignoring BIOS completely.
> >
> > --
> > Kevin O'Gorman
> > #define QUESTION ((bb) || (!bb)) /* Shakespeare */
> >
> > Please consider the environment before printing this email.
>
>
> Hi!
>
> Could it be that You did not even think of trying to use a search engine
> for your problem?
>
> So, i'm a nice guy and did just one little search [coordinate time dual
> boot system windows linux] and will paste You _some_ not even all of the
> links i found obviously quite fitting to Your question:
>
> http://ubuntuhandbook.org/index.php/2016/05/time-differences-ubuntu-1604-
> windows-10/
>
> https://askubuntu.com/questions/800914/clock-shows-
> wrong-time-after-switching-from-ubuntu-to-windows-10
>
> https://askubuntu.com/questions/169376/clock-time-is-off-on-dual-boot
>
> http://www.webupd8.org/2014/09/dual-boot-fix-time-differences-between.html
>
> https://www.ghacks.net/2017/07/30/fixing-incorrect-clock-
> time-settings-while-dual-booting-windowslinux/
>
> https://lifehacker.com/5742148/fix-windows-clock-
> issues-when-dual-booting-with-os-x
>
> https://www.howtogeek.com/211144/how-to-get-windows-and-
> linux-clocks-to-display-the-correct-and-matching-time-dual-boot/
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gqre5fRo704
>
> https://techlr.de/dual-boot-windows-10-und-linux-falsche-uhrzeit/
>
>
> I'm pretty sure the information You asked for is hidden somewhere in
> these links ...! ;-)
>
> Hope i did You a little favor!
>
> Good luck!
>
> J. L.
>
> Not as much of a favor, as we'd both like.

Ignoring the snarkiness of the tone, yours is of course a reasonable
suggestion. But may I emphasize your own use of the word "hidden". And
the fact that I or even "we" may have already done that and wound up with a
different experience than the articles claim.

Of course, if you had read and understood our conversation you would have
noticed that.

Just taking the first article. I tried it's use of timedatectl. It didn't
help, even though the properties match those reported in the article.

And so on, perhaps. I choose not to wade through a bunch of unverified
suggestions and to hope that cooperating individuals can bring out each
others' best thinking and arrive at a solution.
And perhaps even a better understanding of the underlying techology.
Sometimes it even works. Not in this case, at least so far.

I may get desperate and look further into your list. Anyway, thanks for
trying.

--
Kevin O'Gorman
#define QUESTION ((bb) || (!bb)) /* Shakespeare */

Please consider the environment before printing this email.
J. L.
2017-12-12 07:46:25 UTC
Permalink
On 12.12.2017 05:35, Kevin O'Gorman wrote:
> On Mon, Dec 11, 2017 at 6:41 PM, J. L. <***@gmx.net
> <mailto:***@gmx.net>> wrote:
>
> On 11.12.2017 22:07, Drew Einhorn wrote:
> > NTP is probably assuming system clock is UTC and correcting based on
> > your time zone settings. This way ntp can assume all clocks are UTC and
> > not have figure out all the relevant time zone corrections.
> >
> > Does this make sense for your time zone?
> >
> > Remote users can set their time zone environment variables for their
> > local time zone. Things work out nicely on Unix or Linux based systems.
> >
> > I don't know If there is a right way to configure Windows so it knows
> > the hardware clock is UTC and the user time zone is different. If not,
> > you have different issues depending on whether the hardware clock is UTC
> > or local time. You may have to decide which issues are the bigger problem.
> >
> > Windows may screw things up for spring and fall daylight savings
> > adjustments, if Windows thinks the hardware is on local time when it's
> > really on UTC.
> >
> > If the latest updates are not installed, your systems may change to or
> > from daylight savings on the wrong weekend. This can be an issue for all
> > operating systems.
> >
> > My daughter's alarm clock switched itself from daylight savings time to
> > standard time on the wrong weekend this year. And, there is no way to
> > update the rules for when to change.
> >
> >
> >
> > On December 11, 2017, at 12:47 PM, Kevin O'Gorman <***@gmail.com <mailto:***@gmail.com>>
> > wrote:
> >
> >
> > On Sun, Dec 10, 2017 at 11:23 PM, Grizzly via ubuntu-users
> > <ubuntu-***@lists.ubuntu.com
> <mailto:ubuntu-***@lists.ubuntu.com>
> <mailto:ubuntu-***@lists.ubuntu.com
> <mailto:ubuntu-***@lists.ubuntu.com>>>
> > wrote:
> >
> > 10 December 2017 at 20:41, Kevin O'Gorman wrote:
> > Re: How to coordinate the clock whe (at least in part)
> >
> > >On Sun, Dec 10, 2017 at 12:59 PM, Grizzly via ubuntu-users <
> > >ubuntu-***@lists.ubuntu.com <mailto:ubuntu-***@lists.ubuntu.com>
> > <mailto:ubuntu-***@lists.ubuntu.com
> <mailto:ubuntu-***@lists.ubuntu.com>>> wrote:
> > >
> > >> 10 December 2017 at 15:52, Colin Law wrote:
> > >> Re: How to coordinate the clock whe (at least in part)
> > >>
> > >> >On 10 December 2017 at 15:45, Liam Proven
> <***@gmail.com <mailto:***@gmail.com>
> <mailto:***@gmail.com <mailto:***@gmail.com>>> wrote:
> > >> >
> > >> >> On 10 December 2017 at 10:42, Colin Law <***@gmail.com <mailto:***@gmail.com>
> <mailto:***@gmail.com <mailto:***@gmail.com>>> wrote:
> > >> >> >
> > >> >> > The clock is not normally an issue when dual booting.
> > >> >>
> > >> >> It bally well is for me!
> > >> >>
> > >> >> E.g. if it's set to local time, both OSes move the system clock
> > >> >> forward or backwards when daylight savings times begins or ends,
> > >> >> resulting in a 2h discrepancy.
> > >> >>
> > >> >> My solution: minimize use of Windows. I boot it a couple of times a
> > >> >> year, if that, normally.
> > >> >>
> > >> >
> > >> >Interesting, I have never seen that. I assumed the system clock was in
> > >> UTC,
> > >> >and so would not change with DST. You may be right about that though, I
> > >> >have no evidence either way. However I would have thought it would re-sync
> > >> >the next time ntpdate or whatever it is that does the auto timesync ran.
> >
> > >> Its on a tab in date/time that not many people visit, default is off
> >
> > >> That's what I was hoping, but I cannot find anything about NTP in my
> > >Windows 10.
> >
> > Must admit I was unsure if the same controls carry forward to later
> > windoz, (I
> > stopped at Win7) it looks like they do
> >
> > https://www.isunshare.com/windows-10/2-ways-to-change-date-and-time-on-windows-1
> <https://www.isunshare.com/windows-10/2-ways-to-change-date-and-time-on-windows-1>
> > 0.html
> >
> <https://www.isunshare.com/windows-10/2-ways-to-change-date-and-time-on-windows-1%0A0.html
> <https://www.isunshare.com/windows-10/2-ways-to-change-date-and-time-on-windows-1%0A0.html>>
> >
> > only difference appears that you only see the internet time when you
> > click
> > "Change date time"
> >
> > here it (now) has a number of possible time server, IIRC it came
> > with only two
> > (unreliable), the rest I added later
> >
> > there is a reg entry
> >
> > [HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SOFTWARE\Microsoft\Windows\CurrentVersion\DateTime\Servers]
> > @="3"
> > "1"="time.windows.com <http://time.windows.com>
> <http://time.windows.com>"
> > "2"="129.6.15.29 <http://129.6.15.29>"
> > "3"="0.uk.pool.ntp.org <http://0.uk.pool.ntp.org>
> <http://0.uk.pool.ntp.org>"
> > "4"="1.uk.pool.ntp.org <http://1.uk.pool.ntp.org>
> <http://1.uk.pool.ntp.org>"
> > "6"="ntp2b.mcc.ac.uk <http://ntp2b.mcc.ac.uk>
> <http://ntp2b.mcc.ac.uk>"
> > "5"="ntp2a.mcc.ac.uk <http://ntp2a.mcc.ac.uk>
> <http://ntp2a.mcc.ac.uk>"
> > "7"="ntp2c.mcc.ac.uk <http://ntp2c.mcc.ac.uk>
> <http://ntp2c.mcc.ac.uk>"
> > "8"="ntp2d.mcc.ac.uk <http://ntp2d.mcc.ac.uk>
> <http://ntp2d.mcc.ac.uk>"
> > "9"="ntp.exnet.com <http://ntp.exnet.com> <http://ntp.exnet.com>"
> >
> > the chosen NTP server does propagate to other Reg entries
> >
> > but you can manually add direct in the dialogue if you don't want to
> > delve in
> > Registry
> >
> >
> > This is interesting, but I'm uncertain how to use it. I found the list
> > of servers in the registry. I didn't put them there, but there are 5,
> > and number 5 appears as the default. It is time-b.nist.gov <http://time-b.nist.gov>
> > <http://time-b.nist.gov> which I sure hope is not unreliable.
> However,
> > I still get Windows showing the time off by 8 hours when it boots up,
> > and I'm supposing that's because it is using the time in the BIOS DRAM,
> > but I'm unsure because as near as I can tell the BIOS is set to local
> > time; at least that's what I see when I'm in BIOS setup. Frankly I'm
> > all confused.
> >
> > It would be nice if Windows would use nist.gov <http://nist.gov>
> <http://nist.gov> and
> > apply the timezone, ignoring BIOS completely.
> >
> > --
> > Kevin O'Gorman
> > #define QUESTION ((bb) || (!bb)) /* Shakespeare */
> >
> > Please consider the environment before printing this email.
>
>
> Hi!
>
> Could it be that You did not even think of trying to use a search engine
> for your problem?
>
> So, i'm a nice guy and did just one little search [coordinate time dual
> boot system windows linux] and will paste You _some_ not even all of the
> links i found obviously quite fitting to Your question:
>
> http://ubuntuhandbook.org/index.php/2016/05/time-differences-ubuntu-1604-windows-10/
> <http://ubuntuhandbook.org/index.php/2016/05/time-differences-ubuntu-1604-windows-10/>
>
> https://askubuntu.com/questions/800914/clock-shows-wrong-time-after-switching-from-ubuntu-to-windows-10
> <https://askubuntu.com/questions/800914/clock-shows-wrong-time-after-switching-from-ubuntu-to-windows-10>
>
> https://askubuntu.com/questions/169376/clock-time-is-off-on-dual-boot <https://askubuntu.com/questions/169376/clock-time-is-off-on-dual-boot>
>
> http://www.webupd8.org/2014/09/dual-boot-fix-time-differences-between.html
> <http://www.webupd8.org/2014/09/dual-boot-fix-time-differences-between.html>
>
> https://www.ghacks.net/2017/07/30/fixing-incorrect-clock-time-settings-while-dual-booting-windowslinux/
> <https://www.ghacks.net/2017/07/30/fixing-incorrect-clock-time-settings-while-dual-booting-windowslinux/>
>
> https://lifehacker.com/5742148/fix-windows-clock-issues-when-dual-booting-with-os-x
> <https://lifehacker.com/5742148/fix-windows-clock-issues-when-dual-booting-with-os-x>
>
> https://www.howtogeek.com/211144/how-to-get-windows-and-linux-clocks-to-display-the-correct-and-matching-time-dual-boot/
> <https://www.howtogeek.com/211144/how-to-get-windows-and-linux-clocks-to-display-the-correct-and-matching-time-dual-boot/>
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gqre5fRo704
> <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gqre5fRo704>
>
> https://techlr.de/dual-boot-windows-10-und-linux-falsche-uhrzeit/
> <https://techlr.de/dual-boot-windows-10-und-linux-falsche-uhrzeit/>
>
>
> I'm pretty sure the information You asked for is hidden somewhere in
> these links ...! ;-)
>
> Hope i did You a little favor!
>
> Good luck!
>
> J. L.
>
> Not as much of a favor, as we'd both like.
>
> Ignoring the snarkiness of the tone, yours is of course a reasonable
> suggestion. But may I emphasize your own use of the word "hidden". And
> the fact that I or even "we" may have already done that and wound up
> with a different experience than the articles claim.
>
> Of course, if you had read and understood our conversation you would
> have noticed that.
>
> Just taking the first article. I tried it's use of timedatectl. It
> didn't help, even though the properties match those reported in the article.
>
> And so on, perhaps. I choose not to wade through a bunch of unverified
> suggestions and to hope that cooperating individuals can bring out each
> others' best thinking and arrive at a solution.
> And perhaps even a better understanding of the underlying techology.
> Sometimes it even works. Not in this case, at least so far.
>
> I may get desperate and look further into your list. Anyway, thanks for
> trying.
>
> --
> Kevin O'Gorman
> #define QUESTION ((bb) || (!bb)) /* Shakespeare */
>
> Please consider the environment before printing this email.

Hi once again!

Sorry for obviously having misunderstood me, i surely did not want to be
"rude". Why should i! Maybe some more smileys might have been
appropriate? ;-)

Yes, You're right, i did not read through these several dozens of posts
(of not so much interest to me and an additional lack of free time) but
just Your first one and thought i might just give it a try to find
making sense. ;-)

So here's just one more which hopefully finally solves Your problem:

https://lifehacker.com/5742148/fix-windows-clock-issues-when-dual-booting-with-os-x

( http://kb.norsetech.net/set-windows-clock-to-utc-time/ )
( http://crashmag.net/configuring-windows-7-support-for-utc-bios-time )

And obviously there seem to be some differences between Windows 7 and 10:
https://superuser.com/questions/975717/does-windows-10-support-utc-as-bios-time

If these don't help either then pls. excuse me for having "stolen" Your
time! ;-)

Once again good luck! :-)

J. L.

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J. L.
2017-12-12 02:44:24 UTC
Permalink
On 10.12.2017 00:00, Kevin O'Gorman wrote:
> I've installed Ubuntu into a Windows laptop. I missed the place where I
> was supposed to tell the install that the clock will be kept in local
> time, so switching between Linux and Windows is a pain.
>
> Is there a way to fix this short of going back and doing it again?
>
> --
> Kevin O'Gorman
> #define QUESTION ((bb) || (!bb)) /* Shakespeare */
>
> Please consider the environment before printing this email.
>
>
>
>

Just to be sure one more reply to the first thread:

-----

Hi!

Could it be that You did not even think of trying to use a search engine
for your problem?

So, i'm a nice guy and did just one little search [coordinate time dual
boot system windows linux] and will paste You _some_ not even all of the
links i found obviously quite fitting to Your question:

http://ubuntuhandbook.org/index.php/2016/05/time-differences-ubuntu-1604-windows-10/

https://askubuntu.com/questions/800914/clock-shows-wrong-time-after-switching-from-ubuntu-to-windows-10

https://askubuntu.com/questions/169376/clock-time-is-off-on-dual-boot

http://www.webupd8.org/2014/09/dual-boot-fix-time-differences-between.html

https://www.ghacks.net/2017/07/30/fixing-incorrect-clock-time-settings-while-dual-booting-windowslinux/

https://lifehacker.com/5742148/fix-windows-clock-issues-when-dual-booting-with-os-x

https://www.howtogeek.com/211144/how-to-get-windows-and-linux-clocks-to-display-the-correct-and-matching-time-dual-boot/

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gqre5fRo704

https://techlr.de/dual-boot-windows-10-und-linux-falsche-uhrzeit/


I'm pretty sure the information You asked for is hidden somewhere in
these links ...! ;-)

Hope i did You a little favor!

Good luck!

J. L.


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